in response to notes: *edit part 2)

There are studies and polls out today that indicate that there are more people who believe that the Bible is infallible, and yet more people actually haven’t read the book at all. I understand where you’re trying to come from about Leviticus, you’re talking about people who are reading INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible, not even real translations. And Leviticus, was in fact laws for the CULTIC religion [cmpletlyconfuzzled]
that was practiced by those who lived in Israel (not yet called the Jews, that was a almost a thousand years later), but that even the Jews then had to re-examine their faith and what it meant to follow this God (remember that Judaism wasn’t around, and the Israelites were not monotheistic, until almost 400BCE), after the return from the Babylonian exile. Things changed at that point (538BCE) [cmpletlyconfuzzled] 3
and they had to deal with what it meant for YHWH to be mobile, for their religion to not be centered in Jerusalem, if conversion was even possible. The Bible actually chronicles the development of 3 religions: Israelite cultic traditions, Judaism, and then Christianity. To think it was all one ignores the evolutions that took place. Instead, view the Bible as a revelation, piece by piece… [cmpletlyconfuzzled]
As much of the Bible is the world’s response to God as it is God talking to the people of the world. And more a narration of what was going on that helped them identify themselves. Different people seek counsel in different books, but the one that has survived the longest happens to be the Bible. if someone else writes a book that is actually as inclusive of human emotions and events as this one, [cmpletlyconfuzzled]
I’m sure millions would read that, too. However, you cannot get all of these stories, all of this information, all of this guidance (if that’s what people are looking for) from another book. That’s one of the great things: there are happy people, sad people, good, bad, ugly, stupid, genius, goofs, manipulators… and at the crux of it, as you said: God sacrificed himself for each of them. [cmpletlyconfuzzled]
In a world with very little hope elsewhere, why would you want to try to convince people away from it? Science, unfortunately, doesn’t give us hope. It tries to give answers and then asks for more money. Traveling: joy. Reading: peace. Taxes: hatred and pay for wars. Education brings people down more than raises them up. Where is the hope? What is actually trying to lift people up? (see John 3:17) [cmpletlyconfuzzled]

1) I have never before in my life heard the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament which the jews regard as their holy law) was laws for an Israeli cult. Where is your evidence to back up that claim? Leviticus is still used to this day to condemn homosexuality, to condemn a large majority of things, when convenient to the person doing the accusing. Jews today still follow the dietary restrictions, I believe. Not to mention, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy contain not only the story of creation, original sin, and the escape from Egypt, but also the 10 commandments, which Christians still cling to now. So is it viable or not? If it is not still mandated, why do you suppose it is still a part of the Bible? The early Christian church leaders clearly thought that it was valuable when they debated and decided the early Christian cannon. Without it, how do Christians know where they came from, or the nature of god at all? Jews were, according to scripture, rescued from slavery in Egypt (except there is no historical record that they were ever there, or that a mass exodus of thousands of people ever left – this from a culture that not only wrote about but kept meticulous records of tribesmen coming and going on the edges of their land) to wander in the desert for 40 years, to be given a land called Canaan, which was unfortunately, already inhabited. So god ordered them to slaughter every man, woman and child there. Yes it was a tribal culture. All cultures from that time period were. So what?

2) We have a much more accurate version of the Torah, after all these thousands of years and languages than we do of the rest of the bible. The jewish scribes were meticulous in their translating and their copying of Hebrew scripture. I believe that scribes were required to toss a whole manuscript if they had even a line out of place – the whole thing was considered tainted. I could be wrong here, but I believe that’s what I learned in college. The new testament, on the other hand, which is the ONLY thing the Christian faith is based on is copies of translations of copies of copies of copies, passed around, edited and changed. Some stories were added, some were removed. For example the story of the prostitute who was to be stoned, whom jesus saved by stating, famously “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” – even biblical concordances by devout believers acknowledge that this passage was added to the manuscripts much later. As it is, the gospels were written at LEAST 30 years after the resurrection, no one knows who wrote them (we know who they are attributed to, but not their actual authors – no, matthew did NOT write the gospel of matthew – this is historically accepted as accurate by biblical and secular scholars alike) and they contradict each other. Even if their authors WERE the ones they are named after – Luke and Mark never met Jesus, so they cannot have an eyewitness account. The rest of the New Testament, mostly, was written by the apostle Paul who never met Christ either, and never mentions his miraculous birth, life, quotes, miracles or the like – and only talks about his death and resurrection. How are these considered more accurate?

3) actually, the Bible is not the oldest holy book. The oldest religious texts were the Pyramid texts of Egypt 2400-2300 BCE, followed by the Hindu Vedas 1500 BCE. The Torah, or the first 5 books of the old testament were written down probably around the year 500 bc. We also have Buddhist texts dating around 868 BCE, the Diamond Sutra, which was the first scripture widely printed for distribution.

4) I am not trying to steal anyone’s hope. I can write my opinions on religion and delusion all I want. Unless your hope and/or your faith is THAT fragile that it is incapable of being challenged, then I am not affecting hope at all. I have plenty of hope, and I do not believe in the Christian god. I used to. What I care about is truth. It hurts me to realize so many people are suffering under a delusion, hoping after something that there is no evidence for. If you care whether or not you believe in something true, then I believe it is necessary to search for and run after that truth, and seek it with all your heart, no matter where the evidence leads you. If it reaffirms your faith, great. In my case, it didn’t – it led me away from it.

Oh and Haredawg, in response to your last note:

I can say that I don’t believe in a god, but point out that the god I was raised to believe in IS a bloodthirsty son of a bitch. I was raised as a southern Baptist, I was brainwashed into it, I was surrounded by it, with the nice Sunday school stories and the sermons of a loving and wonderful deity, and I was all for it – until I sat down and read the book they were coming from. I read about the divinely mandated genocide, human sacrifice, bloodshed, violence, torture, mayhem and injustice. When I started asking questions, I was met with incredulity or just told that’s what faith was for. I was raised to accept a Christian god. And While I no longer believe that god exists, I can still say that, If he did, if the judeo Christian god exists as written in the holy book that bears his name, he is NOT a god worth of worship, servitude or adoration – he is a mafia boss, a tyrant and a cruel, wicked god, and I would gladly go to hell, rather than submit to his immorality. I also have opinions about unicorns, about Allah and about fairy people – but I don’t believe they exist either. See my point? Not only that, but believers ARE hurting people. Even the non fundy ones. For example – I have a good friend in California, who loves me despite my being gay, who has an open and ongoing debate with me about the bible and religious doctrines. She’s nice, loving, caring and accepting. And she voted in favor of Prop 8, because she believes that she needs to protect the sanctity of marriage from people like me. She is causing harm by voting into law policies that deny rights to other human beings. Make sense?

1) I have never heard the Torah addressed as a cult by any biblical scholar. Can you site that? I understand dealing with a particular group of people in a certain place and time. However, that doesn’t mean cult. I doubt jews would call themselves a cult, and would probably be offended at the term. According to Webster’s a cult is “a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. ” I guess Judaism would fit into that – but so would any other religion. I guess my question to you is what is the difference between a cult and a religion? Would you call Islam a cult? How about Mormonism? So do you as a Christian no longer believe in the 10 commandments? Don’t believe in creation? I’m just trying to tie down what you believe.
2) I have read the Hebrew. Granted, I probably couldn’t anymore, since I’ve been out of college for over 10 years, but I studied it in college, and still have a Hebrew Torah lying around the house somewhere. I have read it. I’m glad you have as well. But please don’t presume I haven’t. Even if you ARE reading the Latin or Greek, you are still reading a copy of a copy of a new testament. I agree with you completely about the nuance of language.
3) thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it, sincerely
3) thank you again, for clarifying your position. I appreciate that you do not believe in an infallible bible, I believe that puts us on even more common ground in which to debate/discuss issues. I agree there is no evidence to prove the existence of god, which is particularly why I don’t believe in him. Where I find religion differing from science is that, traditionally (and I’m not speaking for all Christians), whereas science is open minded, and open to being proven wrong, a lot of religions and religious people/leaders have not lived up to that flexibility and cling to dogmas, rules and ideals without considering a changing social climate and culture. It was rude of me to lump you in with the large majority of others I had met and debated. I apologize. In my experience, your open mindedness is a very narrow minority of those that claim Christianity, and my experience has left me biased.

I do make the same arguments against all dogmatic religion, be it Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Mormonism, etc. The reason that I seem to come down so hard on Christianity, however, is because I am the most familiar with it. I was raised with it and in it and spent a great deal of time at a Christian educational center of higher learning studying it exclusively, including apologetics. So I speak from a place of more background and knowledge when I speak of Christianity and the bible. I have written about Mormonism etc previously. But since Christianity is the one I know the most about, it is the one I feel the most comfortable about speaking against. I don’t come down on Buddhism primarily because a majority of Buddhists are actually atheists – they don’t claim a faith in a god. So, to me, they don’t really fit the pattern of a religious dogma. Make sense?