You should THANK me for getting massaged for you.

“Yes, but healing, that wasn’t his goal. His goal was to die.” Most Christians do not find a distinction between these two. They are interchangeably linked. But as far as the argument, “It was easy for Him” or “how big of a sacrifice could it really be”, what is really the point? Would we not expect that because Jesus was God that it would naturally be an easier sacrifice to make? You’ve in fact,

understated your case. It was because Jesus was simply able to die a sinless death and then ascend to heaven that made it a sacrifice and example worth having at all. I don’t suppose you would think that it makes much sense to be saved or helped from someone who is on the same playing field as you are. As CS Lewis puts it, a drowning man doesn’t keep from being

saved by someone standing on the shore simply because the one on the shore is having an easier time, and pass it up on the grounds that you’d rather have someone else who’s drowning as well. A student being taught to write or read doesn’t learn from another one of the students who has no idea how to do it. He receives the instruction from someone who really has no problem with reading and writing.

The ‘sacrifice’ of Jesus was that in his thirty years of life on earth and eventual murder, given his divine status, none of it was deserved. It may not seem like much for me to spend my time in this little world. I would find quite astounding to find the Almighty God of the universe doing the same. But apparently he did. And I don’t reject it because it was ‘easier’ for Him.

we are all born to die eventually anyway so what does it matter

If you’re going to tell the story, tell it right, man. It’s not my idea of a good story but it’s better than you’ve described. First off, Pilate, the guy who decided things like execution, didn’t want to do Jesus, unlike McVeigh Jesus didn’t commit any person to person nor property crime. Secondly, Jesus spent a thousand years in hell in three days. Hard to swallow? Sure …

Part of the tale? Definately? Changes the eternal bliss buisness a bit? Without a doubt. The idea is the sacrifice wasn’t necessary for dude, it’s an example of selflessness, the stuff that makes a martyr. Your massage is a selfish act that benefits no one. Again, I am not an adherent to the story, but if you’ve got to tell it, don’t make points based on ommission of detail. If you left …

The time and place out of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, then you can call Tom a racist. Perhaps he was a racist, objectively, but when you omit an importent fact, your point is marred by deciet. When you make a faectious analogy based on such deciet, you appear maliscious in your contempt.

Apparantly some early groups of Christians believed that Jesus was born a regular human, and that Christ descended into his body at the river Jordan when John baptised Jesus. Then, on the cross, Christ left Jesus’ body and left him there to die. Christ himself is eternal – he was never born and he never actually died…

…So it seems that there were many early variations on who Jesus actually was and what exactly was meant by his death. And through it all, there doesn’t seem to be any clear reason to believe the version that made it into the New Testament as opposed to any of these other versions…

An Atheist, as far as I can tell there is really no biblical reference to anything of that sort. While other views may not necessarily be accurate to Christian Theism, at least someone could point somewhere in the Bible and say, “Here’s where I got that.” I suppose early Christians could fall back on oral tradition, but that doesn’t really help us today.

HEY check out this website. have a few words with these fellows. http://www.yahwehbenyahweh.com/

“Secondly, Jesus spent a thousand years in hell in three days.” Did he? How do you know?

“An Atheist, as far as I can tell there is really no biblical reference to anything of that sort.” Yeah, but there was no “Bible” until after the year 325, so you would expect that there is no “biblical reference to anything of that sort.”

My opinion, to be perfectly honest, we have no idea today what truly was a part of the “Bible” and what wasn’t, after all, how many times has it been re-written and translated over the years? Concepts get lost in translation and the victor always writes history. Perhaps there were other things that were left out or misinterpurted in the “Bible”. To fall back on my absolute favorite of stories

to be omitted, what about Lilith? I’ve heard from Christians time and time again that Lilith never existed, but in studies of the Quabalah, she does. Isn’t that a bit contradictory? I’m sure there are a lot of other things that got left out of later versions to let Christianity reign supreame, especially since the Church and the Kings were in bed together for most of known history. Rave

If Jesus’ goal was to die, couldn’t he have just waited around for a few more years? It has to happen to everyone eventually.

A couple things Bum. All of the New Testament writings were written and circulated well by the time of AD 325. It doesn’t really seem worth arguing that point. But even if what you said is true (which it isn’t), what if anything did you add to my comments? You certainly didn’t disagree as I mentioned the existence of oral tradition before the Bible. So your point again was?

Raven, the method to test your theory would be to examine texts from before the “Kings” mucked it up and compare it to the translations we have today. One typically finds very little variants to make any kind of huge blatant change to the text. For that matter, it seems of all ancient texts, today’s Bible is probably the most accurate and faithful to what it had originally said.

There are literally hundreds of texts to examine, not to mention the Dead Sea Scrolls. Very few ancient writings are quite so lucky as the Judeo/Christian Scriptures.

How can you be sure these texts have not been tainted? How can you be certain they are the true word of those who lived through the days? The origional texts of the Bible have been long lost. Most of the documentation is simply reproductions of the assumed origional, yet so much time has passed that none can be sure. This is not to say that the words in the Bible are untrue, but what is the

undisputible proof? Until these origional texts can be proven origional, there is no definable answer. All we have is a guess. What is that line between truth and mythology? Where lies the proof?

ima semi-christian…and uve made a helluva point…the hell with everyone else…the end

i think that Jesus did have a choice, because Jesus was God in the form of a man and if he wanted to come down from the cross he could have. he could have stopped everyone of the people who were whipping him/beating him but he didnt because he knew the result of his life being sacrificed. it might seem not entirely selfless of Jesus to die, because after all he ended up in heaven. but if (cont.)

but if you’ve seen the movie The passion of the Christ, or know what he would have had to go through, it does seem selfless. Jesus was whipped, beaten, mocked, spat on, humiliated, and had nails driven through his hands and feet while he was being hung on a wooden cross. he not only went through this after he was sentenced, but he lived his life serving and aobeying God, which is another sacrifice

?’s: Is atheism more beneficial than Judaism/Christianity/Buddhism/Islam, and if so, how?How does atheism improve the richness of life moreso than Christianity/Judaism/Buddhism/Islam?What has atheism done for you?Do you promote atheism over religion?Do you promote atheism over agnosticism?By the end of life, is it more important to have been an atheist?

“An Atheist, as far as I can tell there is really no biblical reference to anything of that sort.” Actually, there are, and you can find some of these ideas in the gospel of Mark. But the Christian groups that believed this had their own gospels – gospels that were eventually trashed and burned by orthodox Christians over the years as they gained power.

So, the Christians that believed this and other views did not rely strictly on oral traditions. They had their own sacred scriptures to point to. The “Christian” (meaning having to do with Christ) set of scriptures in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centures was extremely varied, and the present day NT only reflects a narrow portion of this now mostly lost collection.

Sorry for the lateness of my reply, I forgot that you only do your thing here . How do I know Jesus spent a thousand years in hell? I don’t.My source is the same as yours. I submit that you don’t know the truth of any part of the story for the same reason, and yet you’ve dedicated a lot of time and energy to arguing with it. It seems non productive to me.

“I don’t.My source is the same as yours.” It says that in the Bible? Could you cite the verse?

So have you read about Jesus? I mean have you read the bible? If you have, then, well you are entitled to your opinion…and if you haven’t maybe you should before you go and bash Jesus…He was betrayed, and falsy accused.

And how Can you compare Jesus to a murderer? Jesus didn’t murder anyone.

“And how Can you compare Jesus to a murderer? Jesus didn’t murder anyone.” Because their manner in which their execution happened was similar. They were both executed by their respective state.

“So have you read about Jesus? I mean have you read the bible?” The whole thing, have you?

I’ve read that part, I’ve read and studied this part of the bible Why you ask? because, its the one part I feel matters the most. And no, it wasn’t the same, Jesus did nothing wrong, I feel comparing him to a murderer isn’t even in the ballpark. Perhaps maybe if you compared him to an INNOCENT man who was executed wrongly well, then I would understand.

yes the books were there befor 300 ad however it was about 313 ad when constantine comissioned the canonazation of the holy bible, (decided with books made the cut and what translation)

“And no, it wasn’t the same, Jesus did nothing wrong, I feel comparing him to a murderer isn’t even in the ballpark.” I’m not sure what you’re not getting. I’m NOT saying that Jesus as a person was morally the same or similar with McVeigh as a person – to which your objection would make sense. I’m saying that the “inevitability of the punishment in both cases” are similar.

Atheist, I’m certainly not arguing whether or not there was a group of Christians that believed in a “Christ upon baptism” view or if any of the lost Gospels refer to it. I’m simply noting that as far as a modern follower of Christianity goes, there is no biblical reference by which they could produce such a belief. That’s all.

XianTheist – “there is no biblical reference by which they could produce such a belief.” As I mentioned in a previous note, this belief can in fact be derived from the gospel of Mark and I suspect that its author likely held this position.

an atheist: referencing non existant, lost documents? – LizardQueen (LQ)

liZardQueen – Nope. Many of these previously “lost documents” have been discovered in the 19th and 20th centuries, the most significant find being the Nag Hammadi library of previously unknown texts. Scholars knew that such documents once existed, because we have books by early Church fathers that attack them and quote from some of them.

In many cases, the only thing we can know about some of these lost documents are what the early church fathers say about them, and the quotes from them that they use. But we are fortunate to have recovered some of them. All of this is spelled out in detail in the book Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman, which I just finished reading.