Vester, let’s debate, then.

i often wondered what eternity the people who were committed to God before Jesus’ death entered into after death. my pastor and several others say that they lived in Paradise until the Crucifiction, and then entered into the Kindgdom of Heaven. what Biblical basis this has, i’m not sure of yet, though i’m confident it is there. and note that this Paradise wasn’t some sort of ‘limbo’ or…

…purgatory; those are considered places where you’re placed when your eternal destiny hasn’t been decided. these followers of Him prior to Christ were headed to Heaven. the sacrifice to cover the rest of the world’s sins simply hadn’t arrived yet.

“those who knew God and did His will, before Christ . . . do you honestly think God would send them to hell?” No, only purgatory. And I think the verse for that is in the gospes in a conversation Lazarus had… least that’s what I was told. And the common belief is that when Jesus descended into Hell, there was a “great three day revival” of sorts . . . I don’t really understand it so it’s not

a good thing for me to try to represent that veiw any further, but I’m just trying to understand all sides of the issue and see that every opinion gets represented. — Bon

why spend so much time studying and arguing a faith you don’t believe?

“why spend so much time studying and arguing a faith you don’t believe?” Please refer to my contents page w/ links to commonly asked questions, specifically “The Purpose of this Diary”

I don’t believe in heaven/hell nor a deity/god/goddess/celestial being. I believe in science and logic and evidence…but thats just me 🙂

You’re an egotisitical jerk and I am madly in love with you!

Bum, Why do you this? Why do you egg people on like this? Merely a test of who’s stubborn will will get the best of them? To each his or her own, just let people be. How can you spend so much of your life degrading the beliefs of others? If you want to believe in Atheism than that is fine, but don’t make fun of people who choose a different belief. I know it’s human nature and we make fun of

what we don’t understand, but please I’m begging you, just let it be. Leave them be. Just please . . . argueing stubborn will isn’t and never will be worth your breath.(or tendons) — Bon

I believe you need Jesus to get into heaven otherwise I wouldn’t be a Christian, of course Christ’s sacrifice was necessary to get into heaven, I’m not Catholic I don’t believe in purgatory, God knows all, predestination, therefore he knew that Jesus was going to die for us sinnners on the cross and I believe that he took that into acct

I still can’t see an answer from the response.

“of course Christ’s sacrifice was necessary to get into heaven,” So, all people who died pre-Jesus, went to hell, right? Because they did not have the belief in Jesus, right? Or by what standard did they go to heaven if any of them ended up there?

“Bum, Why do you this?” Because the truth matters…and people believing weird crap make decisions every day based on those beliefs that affect me. Feel free to check out my Purpose of this diary entry that’s linked from my contents page.

Bum – Aside from RC’s, a lot of Christians (I’m Anglican) believe that people don’t actually go to heaven when they die today, tomorrow, etc. Their soul lies in wait (unknowing) and at the next coming those who will rise, will rise – without the knowledge of passing time – different from Purgatory however, we do not believe the longer you wait the better your soul will become.

The NT says that the Saints rose with Jesus to the Holy City (Matthew)…therefore I think it is safe to say they were in the same state of ‘waiting’. Our sins were not paid for, and we are obviously not perfect beings…I think we could have only entered the Holy City before the Cruxifiction if we were.

I would love it if you wrote an entry (I know it would be off the running topic) on your studies. I have the assumption (I know what assumptions can do) that you are in the States, I would also like to know the system down there. I did research in the Cambridge Plate Stacks a couple years ago and was astounded that I was the only student doing research. I am hoping to complete my PhD there.

Sorry life does not give me much time as your posts are still so great. I love your question. Will everybody before Jesus be turned away? Will all the good people that have followed and done good be turned away? If so that is not a god I would want to go to. I believe. I believe we do not “know.” I believe no on before or after “Knows.” I could not lie to my children and tell them what I “know”

when I “know” only that others have told the stories. Well others have told dragon stories, or stories of trolls and faries as well. I love thinking and you really are good at the fairness of your questions

((((((((hugs)))))))))) you can debate all you want – it doesn’t change the fact – the truth – that you were brought in this world by Him – created in divine love – for such a time as this….and may His perfect will be done in your life. Despite what you may believe – you are not random – you were divinely inspired…now debate that…smiling..and please don’t say that you evolved because I will

have to hug you and allow you to feel His divine love – the love that has always existed – the love you shall one day know – the love that reaches out to hearts like yours – not through theology or debate or man’s rational arguments – but through the heart – the Spirit – not by might nor by power – nor by debate – but by My Spirit. May His Spirit touch you precious man – I was a debater at onetime

I guess you could say I am a recovering female version of the ‘thinking bum’…if I may use your term. Except I didn’t debate religion…I just didn’t believe in it. In fact nothing has changed….only now I can see more clearly that wherever His Spirit of truth, life, and love shine, religious pharisees want to step in and crucify not the one bearing the message – but the message itself.

one final thought before I escort myself out of here…may your heart’s location change…may you not spin deceptively – that is not a comforting place to be when the lights are all out. He is as close as your heartbeat. God bless you.

RYN: If the sun ever shined in Ohio, I might be tempted to make a Shroud of Columbus. As it is, I’m stuck with dried up fingerpaints…. *Sigh*

try re-reading what I said please…

Vester: Are you saying that people that did not have the belief that Jesus died and rose from the dead can go to heaven? (For ex. EVERYONE who died before Jesus died, or the Native Americans before 1400). Or by what standard did they go to heaven if any of them ended up there?

I’m saying that the people who loved God with their mind body and soul and followed him by hearing,listening, and acting, went to heaven, that God knew Jesus was going to die so he took that into account when judging people at the gates of heaven,

“I’m saying that the people who loved God with their mind body and soul and followed him by hearing,listening, and acting, went to heaven,” Yes, that is what you’re saying. Now, on what scriptures are you basing this belief? It isn’t even alluded to in the Bible.

Yes, that is what you’re saying. Now, on what scriptures are you basing this belief? It isn’t even alluded to in the Bible. [A Thinking BUM] question: but what difference would scripture reference make if you don’t believe in the bible?

Ok he shot himself in the butt saying that he didn’t believe people before Christ went to pergatory. The Jews believed in pergatory (they call it Shehol) and last I checked even Protestents believe that OT was true until Jesus died. I mean Vester, sweetie, I love you in the name of God, but please please please check your facts. — Bon

actually, from what i understand, people before Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t go to heaven (where God is)..they went to paradise..they still were not totally cleansed of their sin..Jesus’ blood paid a final price that “washed away sin”..they animal sacrifices before hand only covered that sin…so now, after christ’s ressurection..we have direct access to God..

oh, and ofcourse, those i’m refering to who went to paradise were followers of God..just incase that was confusing..?

“I’m saying that the people who loved God with their mind body and soul and followed him by hearing,listening, and acting, went to heaven,” “Yes, that is what you’re saying. Now, on what scriptures are you basing this belief? It isn’t even alluded to in the Bible” See Deut 6:5, 11:1, 11:13, 11:22, 19:9, 30:16, 30:20, Josh 22:5, 23:11, St. Matt 22:37, and I think St. John too.

oh yeah and “Faith without works is dead”

“but what difference would scripture reference make if you don’t believe in the bible? [Serenitys Peace]” It’s an internal critique – a set of contradictory statements all held to be true. If there’s a contradiction, then we don’t need to go any further with any arguments; at least one statement is false.

Deut: 11:13-14 “And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.”

Sure, bon, Deut. says to love god w/ all your heart and soul – but what does he say that gets you? Not heaven, as Vester believes (for some reason). No, God says he’ll give you successful crops w/ rain coming at the right times, and next verse: 11:15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full. And he’ll feed your cows! What a God!

Try arguing the NT versus . . . we are discussing the NT correct? And you know you all love me. But anyways . . . I only brought up the OT versus to show that the concept is not foreign. — Bon

And I don’t have cows, but I’ve always wanted one, (shame on the rest of my family for liking dogs.) but cows are veggie and so am I, so I would appreciate God growing the crops and feeding my (imaginary) cows! Unlike the rest of you who aren’t fortunate to own (imaginary) cows! But being the good Christian that I am, I will save 10% of my money to buy the rest of you (imaginary) cows.

And if I shared my faith and bought you all (imaginary) cows than maybe you will believe in Christ! (And yes this is a mockery of evangelical ministers.)

Oh yeah and, don’t ever call me Bon, if you’re gonna be sarcastic to me. — Bon(nie)

Yes, the Matthew quote also says to love God, etc… That was never the question. At issue is whether Vester’s belief that OT people who believed in God/whatever his criteria of the moment will get into heaven is based on scripture at all? Or, if he is willing to say that he believes he knows a way to get to heaven outside of the Bible.

Speaking as someone who doesn’t believe in hell, I find some of these arguements fascinating. A little cyclicle, but amusing none the less.

I don’t think a lot of these people know what their denominations are teaching. The so called ‘good’ people who died before Jesus did not enter heaven until He rose Himself. That is in the Bible. End of Matthew’s chapter. Jesus died to open heaven…where do these people get these ideas from?

Can you point out the verses in Matthew that you’re talking about? The closest thing I can find is Matt 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Which says nothing of access to heaven of people who have died before Jesus resurrected…

The very end of Matthew…Chapter 27, verses 52-53. “The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy cite and appeared to many people” Scholars say that this verse obviously states the ‘good’ deceased were just dead before the resurrection.

I only have (I’m at work) the NIV version with me and I know the other versions say “the saints rose with Jesus”…Because Christ lifted them from “death”, which many believe is hell…because it is ceasing to exist…heaven was opened onto them. We ‘know’ heaven was opened at the Resurrection from Christ’s teachings…and from the example he set with Saint Dismiss (the humble thief on the cross).

Yeah, that verse talks about how the saints were raised out of their tombs and walked around…but why do you think they went to heaven? And isn’t it weird that only Matthew mentions this? And that no other writer (gospel or otherwise) seems to have noticed all these dead people walking around?

“raised” out of their tombs . . .

The answer to your last question is simple. They wrote for a different audience. Matthew was written to Jews. The significance of holy people being raised is something so out of place that it would stand as a strong testimony with Jews. The Gospel writers did not write complete histories–they wrote narratives giving accounts of actual events. These narratives had audiences.

Resurrection of the dead was a fairly common motif for the polytheistic religions of the Mediterrean, but it was not one in Judaism. So, it makes sense that this would appear in an account to Jews and not Gentiles, especially if the audience of Gentiles had come from this history of polytheism and the authors of the other three accounts wanted to keep them from being confused.

Trust me, I understand and respect your logic. Why would Christ himself, come back to prove his resurrection when he could have just rose to heaven immediately? He did it as a witness. I can’t explain why only one gospel writer wrote of it…I can’t explain why they differ – only that they are different writers. Onto why we are allowed in heaven at all – 1 Peter 1 verses 3 – 13.

And I would assume that you would actually prefer the letters of Saint Peter over the gospels because he was a witness and not a person compiling everyone elses’ accounts (not to say that I don’t believe in the gospels…I just know that some atheists have trouble even using them as a reference – kinda like the apocrypha).

Sorry, the more important verse for you to look at would be 1 Peter 4:6. Stellar Evolution

1 Peter 4:5-6 “Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” Ok, I know you said that Peter might be a better source “because he was a witness” – but what exactly of that verse did Peter witness?

You spend so much of your time sitting here arguing faith. With what principle, you say to prove you point. Honestly, I just think you like the attention it brings you. Do you think you are going to change other people’s opinions just by your poignent entries? Honestly, I think it’s wrong of you to sit here, copy people’s notes, copy people’s thoughts and contrary to what you think you (c)

are doing…. You are not simply debating your point, you are degrading others in the attempt to what, prove you point that there is no higher power. Regardless of your belief, where is it sanctified for you to bash the points of others and make it your life in this online world, seems kind of pointless and fruitless to me. Stop trying to get attention of others in the attempt to prove you

Well, Peter witnessed a lot of Jesus’ adult life. I would think you would hold his letters more credible because he was with Jesus through his teachings, and he spoke, and lived with Jesus. Jesus spent most of His time teaching His disciples. I would think Peter would know more of what Jesus had meant 1st hand than those writing down the words of witnesses. Don’t you think?

thank you for taking the time to visit and note me. Historical events – or events of the past – are not figments of people’s imaginations. In fact – when compared to all other ‘religions’ (I dont’ like that man made term), no other faith – has the historical history, accuracy, legitimacy, archeological, geographical, personal, fact based information as Christianity. Trying to ‘debate’ this only

demonstrates that man can take any opinion he holds and make it sound legitimate – even in the face of fact. This is the deceptiveness of the ‘self’ – we have all turned away and like little sheep gone astray – now to justify that God does not exist – we must use our rational darkened – spiritually dead minds to justify the ‘false reality’ we ascribe to. It’s funny how those who bow to chubby

statues, and half man/half animal multiple beings called gods they can’t even keep track of…are rarely admonished that it is only their imagination. A piece of wood used for firewood can be used as a ‘god’….that is safe. Why? Because it is not truth. Truth is alive, and Truth is manifested – and there is only One Truth – and that is why it was and will continue to be rejected. May Truth touch

your heart – may Truth demonstrate itself to you. Even the disciples could not believe – until Truth manifested Himself to them…it’s not about religion, it’s not about theology, it’s not about the religion of this world so faltered with ‘me, myself, and I’..that it could not recognize Truth when it came…it’s about the Way, the Truth, the Life. Each of us have gifts and skills – yours may be

debate – among other things I am sure. The author of your life cannot be debated…He knit you together in your mother’s womb, you are of infinite value – divinely inspired and created – and magnificently loved by the Creator of Your Heart. May You look upon the Cross one day as I did – see His arms open wide for you personally in love and forgiveness. When His Spirit touches you – debate stops.

When you are alone – and in the middle of the darkness – the difference is – all debate – all thinking – all rationalizations won’t matter or make a difference. Without the life we have lost completing us – we are only as you said ‘figments of our imaginations’ dead men spiritually walking..and this is the ‘reality’. Father, touch your precious son in Jesus Name I pray amen. I note in love

“I would think Peter would know more of what Jesus had meant 1st hand than those writing down the words of witnesses. Don’t you think?” Let’s grant that – my question about how Peter knew that the dead was preached to remains unanswered. That wasn’t something he could “witness” (even if there were other things he could have witnessed).

They taught me in Catholic school that all the important people who died before Christ had to wait in limbo until he “unlocked” the door to heaven. It seems like it was suggested to me that everyone who lived after the coming of Christ who did not believe would burn in hell – including Ghandi and my jewish Grandmother. Ahhhh…8 years of Catholic school…

I would definitely recommend reading 2 Peter, and the whole Bible for that matter. It is harmonious. Also; Gal. 3:24, and more importantly for the debate on where those before Christ go – Romans 2:12-16.

Gal. 3:23-25 “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” Those verses talk about not being under the law anymore – not about the destination of souls.

Jesus Himself spoke of the fact that He was the way to heaven, through His resurrection, He spoke of what you had to ‘behave’ like in order to reach heaven, He told Saint Dismiss he would join Him in heaven…that’s why it’s credible for Peter to have spoken of heaven being opened…because he listened to Christ and witnessed the events. Stellar Evolution – NSI

Bum, you must not have read the Romans passage – it says it quite clearly there.