Religious Debate!

Let’s see how people deal with the following challenge:

I have 4 claims, and 4 ways to respond to the claims, see if you agree with them, or can show how they’re wrong.

1. I don’t think there was a problem of “What happened to a person if he died with un-atoned for sins” until Jesus/NT writers invented the problem.

2. Even if atoning for sins was important, there were valid ways to do that before and without Jesus.

3. If Jesus is God – then he didn’t have much of a sacrifice.  Spends 30 years walking around, has a painful death, and poof is in eternal bliss for eternity.  Some sacrifice!

4.  It must have been the pain that Jesus felt when he was “dying” (he never went out of existence – he’s God, remember?) that “atoned” for sins. It must be that “undeserved pain” of any amount would atone for humanity’s sins.  God could have stubbed his toe (or had others stub his toe for him, unjustly) – and that would have worked just as well.

The way to respond to #1 is by showing Old Testament verses that recognized what happened to a person who died without atoning for sin.

The way to respond to #2 is to show that the Old Testament writers knew of this problem called sin, and wished that they had some way of  “atoning” for them  — that they were looking for and hadn’t found.

The way to respond to #3 is to show that either Jesus isn’t living a cushy life right now, or concede that it was only a temporary pain that Jesus had followed immediately by bliss.

The way to respond to #4 is to show either that it wasn’t pain that atoned for sin, but something else, or that God could have stubbed his toe and forgiven humanity.

To bolster my case here are some Old Testament verses that show that animal sacrifices could atone for sin:

Blood of an animal takes away sin

Lev.4:20, 26, 31, 35

“And the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.”

NIV: 19 He shall remove all the fat from it and burn it on the altar, 20 and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for the sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven. 21 Then he shall take the bull outside the camp and burn it as he burned the first bull. This is the sin offering for the community.

22 ” ‘When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty. 23 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a male goat without defect. 24 He is to lay his hand on the goat’s head and slaughter it at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered before the LORD . It is a sin offering. 25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 26 He shall burn all the fat on the altar as he burned the fat of the fellowship offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the man’s sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev.5:10, 16, 18

“And the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin … and it shall be forgiven him.”

NIV: 13 In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering.’ “

The Guilt Offering

14 The LORD said to Moses: 15 “When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD’s holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. [2] It is a guilt offering. 16 He must make restitution for what he has failed to do in regard to the holy things, add a fifth of the value to that and give it all to the priest, who will make atonement for him with the ram as a guilt offering, and he will be forgiven….18 He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven.

Lev.6:7

“And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him.”

NIV: 6 And as a penalty he must bring to the priest, that is, to the LORD , his guilt offering, a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. 7 In this way the priest will make atonement for him before the LORD , and he will be forgiven for any of these things he did that made him guilty.”

Lev.17:11

“I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”

NIV: 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

Num.15:27-28

And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

NIV: 27 ” ‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven.

Num.29:5

“And one kid of the goats for a sin offering: to make an atonement for you.”

NIV: 5 Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you.

OT verses that clear state that the transgressions – at the very least – leave the offending person – that is, that Joe no longer has “sins upon him” whether or not they are forgive. Also, Jesus forgives people for their sins several times in the NT. No future tense, they *are* forgiven.  Which means that God can flat out forgive a person. 

Ending with a good quote:

“Suppose God should damn to everlasting fire a man so great and good, that he, looking from the abyss of hell, would forgive God, — how would a god feel then?” – Ingersoll