A Thinking BUM
June 14, 2004

Reader Challenge!

“RYN: I chose the Bible, b/c as I said over the years, even BEFORE I had gone to church, before anyone in my family went to church, before I cared about church and before anyone had ever told me I should care, I always had this nagging sense to read the Bible…To me, it was fairly unexplainable b/c nothing in my life had favored one particular religion before that point…so I started reading…and believing, and as I said in my entry the FEELINGS that I have had through God and His Spirit have been awe-inspiring and UN-fakable…things that CANNOT be forced by anything, but must be real, although I know that you probably can’t understand that. (There is a long poem by In Memoriam A.H.H that speaks of a similar experience, I later found) Anyway, that is the best explanation I can give.” [Thankful4Hope]

Now, lemme know how convincing is the following testimony:

“I choose the Koran because, even though I live in a predominately Muslim country, before I had gone to mosque, before anyone in my family went to mosque, before I cared about mosque and before anyone had ever told me I should care, I always had this nagging sense to read the Koran. To me, it was fairly unexplainable b/c nothing in my life had favored one particular religion before that point…so I started reading…and believing, and as I said in my entry the FEELINGS that I have had through Allah and His Prophet have been awe-inspiring and UN-fakable…things that CANNOT be forced by anything, but must be real…”

Two people, each with feelings and emotions that I believe are “real”.

I believe both testimonies — that they feel that their feelings about the matter give them all the validation that they need to believe that what is causing their emotions must be what they are attributing the cause to be.

My problem comes in at the next level. Your thinking that your feelings can tell you or anyone something useful about the world outside of your head.

Let me put one more example, “I was reading the book Where the Red Fern Grows and I really felt a connection to the characters in the book. When an accident happened and the characters died, I felt very sad and I cried. It’s a shame that those dogs died.”

Was there a book? Yes.

Is there an emotional response and connection? Yes.

Is the response REAL whether the characters of the book are fictional or not? Yes.

If I thought that based on my REAL feelings of sad and loss that the dogs in the book were REAL and had DIED, you would say that I’m delusional at best.

So let me put it back to you this way. (This is intended to be a challenge to anyone and everyone – and especially Thankful4Hope).

Suppose I did believe that because of my REAL emotional response to Where the Red Fern Grows I believed that the fictional characters MUST be real.

How would you try and convince me that the characters of the book are fictional?

Log in to write a note

There’s no real way to prove the characters, at some point in time -didn’t- exist. But there is a HIGH probibilty that they didnt exist. Some events may be based on facts, though the story in whole is fictional. But, people believe the bible because it was, you know, written by old senial men thousands of years ago when men lived to be 900 without modern medicine.

In that case, how do we know that our history books are real? How do we know that the articles you like to post in your diary are, in fact, “real”? Nothing is certain. As for Where the Red Fern Grows, the characters could be real. It’s very possible. Maybe you should choose another book and it would be easier to answer your question. One that’s more unbelievable.

I’m not following you reasoning. Can you explain how feeling sad that the dogs died implies that you believe them to be real?

A Thinking BUM
June 15, 2004

“Can you explain how feeling sad that the dogs died implies that you believe them to be real?” No. I have Christians telling me that because they have real emotions when they read the Bible, that the characters of the Book must be real. So I use the same “logic” and see if the Christians can find a fault in it.

Hi- I was just about to put the answers on an entry. Today or tomorrow. 🙂

One of these days you’ll know the truth, but sadly it will be too late, and you will be lost for eternity.

Just a question: has Where the Red Fern Grows ever been thought of as a historical book by anyone? If anyone has, and they want to start following it and believing the characters are real, then they can go for it. It’s not what I believe but who am I to judge? Ok then, I’m done now. Peace.

haredawg
June 15, 2004

Why would I want to convince you that the characters are fictional? Seriously, what possible motivation would I have for swaying your notion of reality? That you feel a strong emotion over the death of dogs is the issue, not whether they were real dogs or not. Also, if you kill someone because of your belief, it’s not the dogs fault, real or imagined… I’m assuming that’s where you’re going next

haredawg
June 15, 2004

in that your actions being detrimental to my community is the only possible connection between your beliefs and my need to convince you otherwise. I submit they are still your actions, and once you’re removed from my community, my interest in your beliefs becomes purely academic.

Click on my chapter called “Messy”. It’s the latest entry of that chapter.

I think that one of the main things we have to keep in mind is that we are to have faith in our Lord. Jesus died on the cross for our sins and He owes us nothing. He does not have to prove His existance.

If you believe that… I’ve got some Enron stock you might be interested in buying.

“One of these days you’ll know the truth, but sadly it will be too late, and you will be lost for eternity.” Can someone say cop-out?

kept in cages
June 16, 2004

Let me go against the grain here and say that I whole-heartedly agree with you here. I’m not one to judge whether someone’s emotions or beliefs are accurate, but I can see that just because someone firmly believes something does not mean it’s any more true than the next ancient idea. I have a hard time listening to anyone who believes in one supreme religion, anyway.

Telperien
June 16, 2004

what about people who have had physical experiences related to religious/spiritual beliefs? Like stigmata, and visions that appeared to more than one person? I realize that the physical body can be fooled as well as the mind, but it is a little more difficult, ney? especially the stigmata thing. that’s just a little freaky.

So what about experiences one has where they cannot explain it other than “a God thing”? I’ve had tons of those, from actually seeing an angel, to knowing when something “evil” was going on. I have what’s known as the gift of discernment, the ability to know what’s what in the spiritual realm. Something that real to me, can’t be an “emotional thing” because it is evidenced too much. (cont)

Also, my suicide attempt at seventeen, failed against all odds. I should be dead, but I’m not. (I had slit my self from the wrist to the elbow, deeply. 1mm is all that kept me alive, apparently.) I have too many things happen in my life to say that it’s not God. I can’t, simply because personal evidence points right to Him. Not emotions, but evidence.

RYN: did you actually watch the video? If so..the Dr. himself explained that this wasn’t “near-death”. I’ve actually been talking to a few people about this, and some disagree as you, but some agree. I’ve even asked a few Dr.’s who are in my family. Some take sides on both issues. However, I’m not asking you to agree. We can always convince ourselves that something is right/wrong when we believe.

By the way, there is no true conclusion on what actually happens during a near-death experience. Therefore, I can’t agree or disagree with you. We do not know for sure what happens when a person dies and comes back to life as far as the brain is concerned. I researched that as much as I could and all sources said “no one is for sure.” Go to http://www.near-death.com. I just thought it interesting.

RYN: Well, I’m not a Christian, but now I’m curious as to how THEIR reasoning works. Do you know anyone I can ask?

i say believe in whatever you feel like believing in. if the bible fills you with emitions and feeling, and the thought of god excites you and gets you modivated. then believe in it. same goest for anythign else, from unicorns, to pokemon. 😛

that last note was from me..heh

….blah…. You’re picking on stupid people.

thankful4hope
June 20, 2004

I don’t really think that is the same, b/c I haven’t over the years consistently PRAYED to a character from *Where the Red Fern Groes*, and seen completely UNexplainable, and sometimes even “impossible” things happen as a result of those prayers… I know it is a difficult thing to understand if you have never experienced it, and these “debates” are generally pointless, b/c both parties are..

thankful4hope
June 20, 2004

CONT- Firm and unbending in their beliefs. I can’t and wouldn’t want to try to force you to share my beliefs, but you shouldn’t MOCK something just b/c you don’t understand it. Anyway, God Bless, and I sincerely hope that one day you will know that joy that comes from knowing Christ, Jesus, because it really is better than anything else on this earth.

InTheSandBox
June 21, 2004

oh you know me, i don’t play that way. i agree! in fact the charicters in the red furn Grows had that same impact on me, as did the bible and the Koran, for god can be found in all these books, i would not be supprised if there has been many of religious experiences in the phonebook. since the red furn affected me and you and countless others the same way…

InTheSandBox
June 21, 2004

well in that regard the fictional charicters are infact more real then the people i can see. be it santa claus the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, god, christ, budda and mother goose. they all have affected more real precivible affects on this life then any ‘real’ person could do in a lifetime. with love, kit

BlessedDarkness
June 21, 2004

Speaking of testimonies mine is just that I feel persecuted because I wasn’t allowed to attend service or read the Bible or even look at one and it makes me passionate about what I believe, but you know me enough to know I wouldn’t do more than mention it to another person if they hadn’t asked me about it first. Anywayz you’re the only person on here I even care to associate with because of

BlessedDarkness
June 21, 2004

not to name anyone but a lot you know whos are really stuck on being in there comfort bubble and not being a part of reality so I resign from writing in this diary but you have my permission to quote me at any time for any reason and I’ll continue to read you love ya – Bonnie

Atheist Under Ur Bed
September 14, 2004

Good to see your diary back up! 🙂

ryn: tolerance of what you consider to be false beliefs is good because if you don’t tolerate them and allow them to practice their religion without persecution, how are you going to be granted that freedom? They may consider your beliefs to be false. So even if you don’t agree with them, it’s still good to tolerate it.

ryn: yes i suppose so. but when i say tolerate i don’t only mean allow, but allow without persecution… of any form whatsoever. like for instance… a christian shouldnt go up to someone and be like “you’re going to hell because of…” blah blah whatever. or to reverse the situation you shouldn’t go up to a christian and be like “all christians are hypocrites and judgemental so you are too”.

It all is moot because were all in pods, plugged into the Matrix anyway so why debate?

michael.
September 27, 2004

You don’t happen to have a contact email or anything like that for MC Hawking, do you?

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