Jesus didn’t have a choice about dying.

you’ve missed quit a bunch of detailes bout jesus, but i wont get into it knowin what you will twist it to anyways. McVeigh did not lived to die for us; nor to be convicted for us in the first place

McVeigh made choices in his life which led to his convivtion and eventual execution. He could have choosen to tread a different path that would have ensured this didn’t happen (assuming justice prevailed). In that sense, McVeigh’s fate was in his own hands. The same could be said of Christ, though it could aslo be argued that Christ knew his fate in advance, which implies no choice.

Christ had the power to escapse from that cross at any point in time if he really wanted to…but he didn’t. He lived a perfect life, was wrongly accused, and CHOSE to die on a cross in order to save us. Do you think McVeigh could have stopped the injection from spreading throughout his body? Absolutely not. That is the difference.

Then I’ll have to wonder why he chose to die to save us. How did his death save us, and more importantly, how did he come to the conclusion that his death was the only way by which we would be saved, and that there’ll be no other means of saving us by remaining alive?

I think paralleling McVeigh and Jesus is ridiculous…you could have come up with something better…

Read my diary: my entrance |entry & life and death |entry -Rebirth- / anybody and if ya got questions, feel free to note

McVeigh was a man but Jesus was God in the form of man. so ur comparison doesn’t make sense at all. Jesus chose to die, and not forced, coz there’s no other way to reconcile us back to God if Jesus hadn’t sacrificed himself. We, humans are not perfect enough to do anything that can make us have eternal life. Only Jesus is perfect enough to do these coz he had a sinless life. r u sinless? no

Jesus had a choice just as the others did, or just as I do when I smoke. Our choice of death is not really a choice to die but it leads to how we will die. I don’t understand why we worship the cross of Jesus and not the bullet of MLK, or bombs that have wiped out other good people. Personally I won’t worship anything that is used in evil.

I’m sensing a pattern here…you keep saying that Jesus was condemned by the state, therefore, he had no choice. But really, he was sent by God for the purpose of living a perfect life and then dying a horrible death. That was the whole purpose of his life…to die. So in some twisted way, I guess you’re a little bit right. He had no choice that he was going to die, not because He was condemned by

the state, but because He was condemned by our sins.

“you keep saying that Jesus was condemned by the state, therefore, he had no choice.” Socrates was condemned by the state, but he had a choice.

“McVeigh was a man but Jesus was God in the form of man. so ur comparison doesn’t make sense at all. Jesus chose to die, and not forced, coz there’s no other way to reconcile us back to God if Jesus hadn’t sacrificed himself.” 1. that 1st argument is circular and unconvincing to a non-believer. 2. that 2nd argument says that an undesirable outcome would result if Jesus didn’t have a choice…

…which isn’t an argument of the fact of the matter at all. And finally, that second argument is not true even if it was a fact of the matter – the lambs that were sacrificed for the sins of man before Jesus were not given a choice, so NO, it is not necessary for Jesus to have had a say in the matter, even given the history of the sacrifices.

As I remember the story, jesus could have just told Pilate he was the son of god and pilate was willing just to whip his scrawny swaddling ass and let him go. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong here, but that seems like a choice to me. In fact weren’t those the forty lashes, a coerced for confession and a way to placate the blood thirsty masses?

“As I remember the story…” Which version were you reading?

It’s like we learn in prevention if you make a choice you will stick to that choice and it soooo awesome when a person has a cause that he/she is willing to die for! — Bon

Socrates is not God. Timothy McVeigh is not God. You can’t even compare them. That is not a convincing argument because there is absolutely no corrolation between the situations. But I’m not going to argue with you anymore. By trying to find ways to prove you wrong, I am just making you believe your own twisted logic more and more, and that is not what I want. I wish you could understand that this

isn’t just something to argue about…that this is good, wonderful news! Jesus died for you! This gives you a hope and a reason to live. God loves you enough that He sent his only son to die a horrible death for you (whether he had a choice in the matter or not is beside the point.) This is a precious gift that we did nothing to earn, it was just given out of God’s grace. All you have to do is

choose to accept it. And no matter what you choose-to accept it or to argue it-God STILL loves you. You are his child and no mattter what, He will always take you back. He is waiting patiently for you, all you have to do is accept His grace.

We can all debate back and forth what we believe all day long…but the fact of the matter is that no christian can make or convince a nonbeliever to believe the Bible and what it says…only God knows the hearts of people..and people make their choice to believe or not…and one thing about the Jesus having a choice..

Pilate himself stood before the Jews with Jesus and said he found no fault in him…Jesus probably could have pleaded with him to be free, but he pleaded nothing..b/c Pilate really found no reason to have him executed…it was the Jews that demanded his death…to a believer, he did make a choice…to a nonbeliever, it can obviously be debated…

How do you explain Christ’s death and resurrection? He was seen by many after he resurrected and was seen ascending to heaven – Luke 24:50-53. The possibility that he wasn’t dead when he was burried has been explained away, being put in a different tomb has been explained away. Bum, where does your questioning beging with God…creation?

You’re ignoring the hypostatic union. If that is taken as being a meaningful doctrine, then as God, Jesus is capable of making the choice is his very godliness. In that way, in Christian doctrine, He chose to come to earth, knowing both what that death would affect, and what it would lead to. The choices were made before He ever came to earth as a man.

While I was thinking about it, and before the computer that had it on it crashes again, I sent you my case for defending the resurrection of Jesus. Interested to hear your thoughts.

If you want to argue the hypostatic union is a logical contradiction, that is a different argument than the one you’ve noted here. If the doctrine is veridical though, this argument you’ve made against it doesn’t follow. Jesus (as God with all that implies, esp. Omniscience,etc.) chose as God to come to earth with full knowledge of the consequences, good and bad. That is in no way circular.

you dont get it, you’re missing the point, how much longer will you continue to eat on the outside of a orange before you realize that you’re supposed to eat the inside of it?

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. [Acts|4:12] only you yourself can chose to believe in his deity or not; you will keep on stayin at the same spot,until you take the step of tru repentance to move forward of what you think you might know about christ jesus. choose for yourself. only way: repent and call on his name

“you dont get it, you’re missing the point, how much longer will you continue to eat on the outside of a orange before you realize that you’re supposed to eat the inside of it? [Vester]” Vester, you have yet to string together a coherent thought. Let me know when you get one.

How do you explain Christ’s death and resurrection? Hmmmm, I’ll take fictious mythology for $200 Alex!

How do you explain all the eye-witnesse who were there, that saw his death happen and saw him after he resurrected – I wouldn’t call that myth.

“How do you explain all the eye-witnesse who were there, that saw his death happen and saw him after he resurrected – I wouldn’t call that myth. [Ambassador4Christ]” What eye-witnesses? Do we have any written record of any eye-witness?

Christ was sent to die for His people on the cross. Any choice in the matter was made long before Christ took the form of man. The entire Old Testament points to Christ’s death and all that we were told would happen did. To suggest that Christ had a choice at the time of his death is weak and calls into question God’s truthfulness and divinity.

I agree with the not comparing man to God comment. How can you compare something so simply defined as He is God, and we’re not. Even if a person does not believe in God, you can’t compare another person’s belief in divinity with something completely recognized as undevine (and I don’t think that’s a word) Also, although I have no idea what Vester was talking about in his note, I do believe what

you said to him, was really harsh. Please use constructive criticism. Do you even know him? And if not you don’t know him or personality at all or whether or not he can handle that, than that’s just mean. Like the old guy randomly calling me fat this weekend . . . I have anorexia. He didn’t know anything about me, whether or not I could handle that, and he was soooo wrong. I didn’t eat the

the rest of the day, and I barely ate at all the rest of the weekend. — Bon

Your argument really has no ground to stand on, basically it’s bs. I would go into detail, but you seem smart enough, so I’ll let you figure out for yourself what’s wrong with it. And to note, this is not a christian perspective.

What eye-witnesses? Do we have any written record of any eye-witness? [A Thinking BUM] ^ read the Gospels. xx

“^ read the Gospels. xx [taylor.]” So what part did the Gospel writers witness? The part when the women find the tomb? The part when Cleopas and his friend went to Emmaus – when they saw Jesus but didn’t recognize him for a while?

“^ read the Gospels. xx [taylor.]” So what part did the Gospel writers witness? The part when the women find the tomb? The part when Cleopas and his friend went to Emmaus – when they saw Jesus but didn’t recognize him for a while? [A Thinking BUM] the writers of the Gospels took first-hand accounts of seeing Jesus resurrected and His ascention and recorded them in the New Testament.

hmm, Comparing Jesus to M.V is really interesting…I’m not sure if I would take it that far, plus we have a different political system to try and prosecute wrong doers. What did Jesus do wrong? Claiming he was the son of God? Doing miracles? If that’s wrong shouldn’t we arrest and prosicute David Copperfield?

Maybe we should kill David copperfield see if he will rise from the dead and leave a folded napkin in in his coffen? Or maybe be can all pretend we’re vampiers start a cult and drink his blood?

reading this entry a few things came to my mind. first of all in Mark 15:34-37 it talks about the 6-9th hour. the 9th hour was when Jesus died on the cross. in typical crucifictions, *crucifixions?* it could take up to days for someone to die. that is why they had the custom of breaking the legs of those hanging. Jesus didnt prolong his death. not only did he allow himself to be crucified, *cont*

but he literally just hung there and died. mind you, i guess you would have to take into account that he also had just taken a beating beyond anything that can be imagined when he was scourged. also in Matthew 4:6 it talks how it is written that Jesus could commange his angels concerning him so he would not even strike his foot against a stone. Jesus didnt do that on the cross. he stayed *cont*

on the cross and never onces called an angel down. and another thing to think about is that after Jesus did all of his miracles, He healed people, delivered them from demons, raised them from the dead, fed multitudes of people with limited resources.. if He did all of this, could he not miraculously come down from the cross? of course He could. *cont*

none of what ive said is proof…. i dont believe you can prove God, God will prove Himself to those who are listening and looking and paying attention. Ezekiel 40:4a says ‘The man said to me, “Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for that is why you have been brought here.’ if someone isnt willing to look with *cont*

to look with the heart God gave us then we will never recieve revelation of Jesus. i think it is fair to say that without revelation of God, God doesnt make sense, Jesus doesnt make sense, however, how do you make sense of God when you examine Him through human thinking that is fallible in itself. you can’t.

actually, i believe they broke the legs of the two theives that time b/c the sabbath was upon them and no executions were allowed on the sabbath…Jesus was already dead when they came to break his legs…but they went ahead and speared him in the side(into his lung) just to make sure…the gospels say that he gave up his spirit…

well hey..i was half way right…it’s all in john 19:31-37 if anyone wants to know.. S.P.

Yes, the reason they broke the legs of the two thieves at that time was that the Sabbath was upon them. thank you for the correction. it was typical of crucifictions that went on for prolonged times to break the legs of those hanging so they couldnt push themselves up for air. i believe it either caused them to suffocate or their lungs to fill with fluid and then suffocate. i cant quite remember.

“There are clearly parts of the Gospels that are not taken from first-hand accounts – when Jesus goes off by himself for 40 days and the devil comes and takes him to a tall mountain – how do you know which parts where based on first hand accounts?” we were talking about something entirely different than Jesus and Satan’s temptations during His 40 day fast. please try to stay on topic.

” ‘you dont get it, you’re missing the point, how much longer will you continue to eat on the outside of a orange before you realize that you’re supposed to eat the inside of it? [Vester]’ Vester, you have yet to string together a coherent thought. Let me know when you get one. ” LOL, that was hilarious…

People should stop using bible passages as references. It’s like using made up quotes to try to prove something. The bible is crap, so you can’t use its words to justify any of your points.

“we were talking about something entirely different than Jesus and Satan’s temptations during His 40 day fast. please try to stay on topic. [taylor.]” We were talking about the parts of the Gospel that were “based on first hand accounts”. There was at least one place where the Gospel COULD NOT have been based on first hand accounts. You claim that another part was based on first hand accounts.

And I was asking the very relevant question: How do you tell whether one part of a Gospel is based on first hand accounts or not? Cause if you can’t tell me, or you don’t know – why should anyone believe that any part of the Gospel was based on first hand accounts? Especially considering that there are parts that we know ARE NOT based on first hand accounts.

ryn: my answer is simply that i don’t know, and to be honest i’m perfectly content with that. part of having faith isn’t needing to analyze something to no avail or needing to see it to believe. if you ever wanted to discuss what i believe one-on-one, i’d love to-i’m an open book!

Thanks for that link! Interesting story. And interesting that it contains this passage: “About a dozen studies have shown that religious people tend to share other personality traits…. These include the ability to get along well with others and being conscientious, working hard, being punctual, and controlling one’s impulses.”

Studies collected by C. Daniel Batson mention other traits: Fear, prejudice, neurosis, and a tendency to embrace authoritarianism. Funny how this story only mentions the more positive traits….

Hmm..interesting how traits go like that. Kind of like reportedyly higher suicide rates among committed atheists than any other group.

I’ve decided that you question God, as much as I question the government

ryn “Not Librel”‘s diary: you’ve read the Bible . . . what do you mean saying there isn’t any prophecy in original scripture . . . what about Isaiah? — Bon

If you question His “Son of God” abilities to be able to save Himself (which He would not do as that is what the devil wanted – remember what He told Peter, when Peter asked Him to save Himself?) then surely you must realize that Jesus still had the complete abilility to save Himself – He simply could have denied the Priests, and His accusations. Don’t you think? NSI – Stellar Evolution

10“You won’t talk to me?” Pilate demanded. “Don’t you realize that I have the power to release you or to crucify you?” 11Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who brought me to you has the greater sin.” Like a precious sheep to the slaughter – for the lost sheep…crucify! crucify! Barnabbas was released (that’s you

and me – the convicted criminals) and Jesus took our place on the Cross…how beautiful when His Spirit reveals the truth…the Word once dead on a page – remained dead on a page – remained an object of debate because it was dead on a page – now the Word by His Spirit is alive – for in the beginning was the Word – the Word became flesh – and the Word dwelt among us. Now the Word reads us :-)He is

reading you – He knows you intimately – He knows each tug of your heart – He knows each thought before you think it – He knows you better than you know yourself…how great to be known and loved completely. Sacrifical love is foolishness to the world…..for the Cross is foolishness to the world. May you come to know the Author of love – love did not evolve – love is – and love remains.

for the record….if you need an ‘eye witness’ that I know you are alive – I can be one…then again…2000 years from now…it won’t matter – because someone called ‘thinking Bum XVII’ will say about me then….what eye witnesses?

Actually BUM, if you look at the story, Jesus did have a choice: When Pilate was questioning Jesus, he told him that he thought he was innocent, and all Jesus had to do was to speak up and defend himself. However during the entire night while Jesus was being “tried” infront of different people, he never spoke to defend himself. So, Jesus chose/allowed himself to be killed when he could have lived.

“When Pilate was questioning Jesus, he told him that he thought he was innocent, and all Jesus had to do was to speak up and defend himself.” The Gospel writer mentions this – but he himself says that all of Jesus’ followers have run away at this point, so is this scene speculation? Where does this info come from?

only two of the Gospel writers were one of the 12 original disciples. Two of the writers were casual observers, and one of them wasn’t even a follower but had simply done thurough research from eye witnesses (eye witnesses are the most valid evidence in the modern court of law). It would appear that there are facts. Not only that, but there is no reason not to believe that some of the men who were

condeming Jesus and were there as Pilate examined him, didn’t become followers of Jesus. If you want proof, look at Paul. In fact, there is far more reason than not that Paul (Saul at the time) would have been there during most if not all of the trials and been on the inside. Just some thoughts

“If you want proof, look at Paul. In fact, there is far more reason than not that Paul (Saul at the time) would have been there during most if not all of the trials and been on the inside.” No, Paul never met or saw Jesus while he was alive.

You’re right, I forgot about that. However, he certainly would have heard of him. Even Herod heard of Jesus. Paul was however, a very studious pharisee and had a well known and well liked teacher who, more likely than not, would have been on the inside of the plot to kill Jesus. (If I were alive during the time and was a part of the temple work, I would want Jesus dead too). Anyways, the point is

that there would have been someone there who heard it, and word would have gotten around. That is, after all how we have most of our history today – spoken word and past down. There is no reason that the Jews of that day who followed the teachings of Jesus were any less reputable than any other source of history. In fact, there life style would suggest so.

Wow… I just stumbled across Vester’s OD and followed it back to your OD. I’m glad I’m not the only person trying to enlighten these savages. (Gotta love that irony)