How to lose a Biblical Argument with an Atheist.

Hehehehehehe. Makes you feel good, doesn’t it? I’m not even the one who won the argument and I still got warm fuzzies. However, many “Christians” DO abuse Leviticus 20:13 waaayyy too often. Which is interesting, because there is wide speculation over its true meaning…the original translations can be interpreted in different ways that may or may not mean that all gays are an abomination. Iforget the exact original phrasing…I’ll have to look it up.

It’s a sheer arrogance, coupled with the knowledge that if they lose too badly, they merely need to fade away and come back with a different mask.

When Muslims are a minority in country, they are commanded to either accept the government or leave it. I am not sure what you mean by a “Muslim revolution”. I’d support anything that serves God’s cause with everything I have. The case of Israel is a special case, because the “Muslims” there care more about nationalism than Islam.

in a* country. Most religions people are pathetic when they get into argument with guys like you. About Islam, it is something to be accepted with an open mind and heart, not something to be argued about, because God has made His religion in way which leaves a small space for doubt, because if Islam was something that left no place for doubt, there would have been no value for believing in God.

God rewards Muslims for their accepting to believe in Him. It is not a case of logic or common sense. Suppose you die and find yourself in front of God (I guess you have been told this before), what’d you say then, make fun of Him too? Try to make Him understand your logic? You might find it too silly to consider that for even a moment. A reason why the Qur’an impresses me is because it always

leaves a place for people like you to make fun of it. Because God cares more about feelings than about logic. The logic is the simple “software” that God has written for the universe to work by, while the feelings are the marvelous outcomes of that “software”. God doesn’t want unworthy people to enter His country. Those people who think they are so clever when they make fun of His kind words.

i did mention that i’m in love with you..right? *smirk*

Actually, you have taken every single verse out of context. I will string together my verses into a coherent Biblical, Christian view…but don’t wait up for it. It might be a few months from now. I’m busy. You claim to have “won” an argument when there is no argument going on. I know Jesus was the messiah. He lives and came here to save you and me from our sin. There is nothing to argue.

my primary concern, is the salvation of you, me and the world. I have no desire to “argue” with you over a debate which has been won by Christians long ago, by much more intelligent people than either of us. I would consider myself an amateur apologist. Try your hand at someone like Thomas Aquinas and you will find that atheism will crumble in your hands.

There is strength in numbers, that is why the sheep are told to procreate like crazy. Extra cannon fodder always comes in handy.

”I know Jesus was the messiah.” (unravelled) Come, come now. You BELIEVE he was the Messiah, you can’t possibly know.

Actually the only scripture I can think of as semi-relevent to this “argument” is Genesis 38:8-10. However, Onan was probably condemned for his refusal to provide offspring for his dead brother, not for using birth control.

“I will string together my verses into a coherent Biblical, Christian view…” How is that not taking verses out of context???

“You BELIEVE he was the Messiah, you can’t possibly know” Yes I can know….and I do know that Jesus was the Messiah. History has proved it over and over again….and so has fulfilled prophecy. I do however have to disagree with Unraveled….the Bible teaches “go forth and multiply”…not birth control.

I enjoy respectful theological debates and I value that not everyone believes in the same thing, I even enjoy pushing the envelope a bit too (if people can’t explain why they believe, then why do they say they do?) but ridiculing others’ beliefs is just wrong. All we have are a bunch of theories, anyway. That’s all any of us have.

The context of Onon can be found in the tradition of Moses later made law by Moses concerning what should be done if a brother should die and his wife whose son was to carry on the family lineage did not concieve child. If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her,

and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her. (Deuteronomy 25:5 KJV) Here Judah was telling Oman to following the tradition to wit Onan rejected that tradition because he thought it was not right. Did God find it acceptable? And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that

And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. Genesis 38:8-10 KJV) How did God deal with what Onan knew….He slew him because he was displeased with what he had done.

It is also important to understand why God was so displeased. It was through the Line of Judah that the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, would come and thus Onan was acting out of concert with God’s eternal plan of redemption. In essense Onon was determining what is right and acceptable not God. It was not “pulling out” as birth control, it was his disobedience that brought his death.

Furthermore, the same holds true today. The wages of sin is death, and man is by birth and practice and vile sinner who is not obedient to the law, no not even one as the scriptures would teach. Onan sin was disobedience, ours is disobedience. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can save us from the quick and utter demise of Onon if we put our faith and trust in the substitionary death on the cross of

Calvary. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV..But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5 KJV

Hi Bum. Thanks for your note. I appreciate all comments and points of view. I quite agree with you, that reality isn’t bound by anyone’s imagination — yours or mine. Just because we can’t imagine our existence without a creator, doesn’t make it so. Conversely, just because we can’t imagine our existence with a creator, doesn’t make it so either. It’s called faith. We all have faithin something, whether it’s God, a natural order, humanity, our ourselves. You write well, and you have obviously studied the bible. I’ve enjoyed reading some of your entries. Thanks. Pura vida!

I would have to disagree hope500. Saying that you *know* he is the Messiah, that you *know* there is a God would be just as ridiculous as me saying I know 100% there is no God. I would be foolish to do so. It’s all about belief, conviction and coming to logical conclusions, for both sides. I’d be interested to know which events in history you speak of though.

Jesus is well hench

Seeing the words coherent and Biblical next to each other in a sentence is better than anything a stand up comedian has to offer.

RYC: I usually respect your opinion and hope you are not being serious about the worship of Mary! It is so clearly evident that this practice exist as ever church in my area start or ends with the term of Mary and not the Head of the Church the Lord Jesus Christ. Listen to their prayers and it is infested with Mary, not the one who answers prayer. Nowhere in the Bible does it say ask unto Mary

and believe and you will have it, though it says that about Christ. They have elevated her to co-remptrice or however you spell it. No where does it tell us to do anything of the sort. She is Mary, a virgin at the time of conception by the Holy Spirit who had many more children. Can she really still be a virgin. God used her just like he has used many. She should not be exalted anymore than they.

This entry is made of win. Good show. The person you were originally arguing against has given up on rational argument based on any objective evidence of any sort and has retreated to subjective personal experience (or has deferred the argument to a unspecified date in the future). A winrar is you!

hey, congrats, three whole entries w/o overt anti-semitism. Like most of your entries there seems to be something lacking here. What are your views regarding the issue (bearing children)? You obviously think a christian is supposed to believe one way, but what about you? Do you advocate caution or abandon? Are you saving yourself for marriage? Big on how others should act, short on personal discl

Ok, ok, It isn’t really important to me. I guess the reason I asked is because you seem to have a very black and white view on other peoples morality. If you are registered democratic, by these standards, you are obliged to support every democratic candidate. Most people don’t work like that. Most people take what they can use, what makes sense in their lives, don’t you?

Catholics are the only sect I know with a hard on for birth controll, most other sects of christianity don’t. Catholics have a bit different bible, a tool you seem to use as though if it were not sancrosanct to the christian they aren’t really christians, a tool you use like a bludgeon. Are you really concerned with unravelleds mating/procreation habits or is your argument an attempt to belittle

either the person or the beliefs? Personally I think not having a child when you don’t want one is an excellent practice regardless of ones religious beliefs and would never think of arguing a person out of that position either through shame of implied hypocracy (neener neener neener, the bible says different) or, well, any means. It’s why it’s a valid question; what do you believe?

Interesting. Though you disagree with my religion, I would still honor advice from you, because you think it out well.

wow, unravelled got served! i love your diary. keep up the good work.

Hey, I’m back! I’m so sorry I never got around to writing that rebuttal. My life has kind of taken a more difficult turn lately and I haven’t had much time to do anything, let alone come up with that rebuttal. I’m going to have to hold off on it indefinitely for now, at least until things settle down here. I’ll continue to write and leave notes, though. Unravelled is definitely in the wrong here.

God is the only one with the authority to give life and take it away. He said to be fruitful and multiply. A couple who doesn’t procreate is sinning, regardless of their reasons. If the time isn’t right, let God be the judge of that. Birth control is a sin (and I’m not even Catholic!). Married couples must procreate. That’s the whole reason for marriage, in the first place.

Also, I’m not convinced Unravelled knows what reading verses in context means. You can’t string verses together and call it ‘in context’, because that’s simply making the verses say what you want them to say. To understand what each verse says, you need to take it in context with the verses surrounding it; read the whole chapter, not try and rationalize it with other, unrelated verses.

“I have no desire to “argue” with you” – Unravelled “I’m so sorry I never got around to writing that rebuttal.” – California Christian Christians unable to defend their faith? How… novel. NOT. “I have some serious patience” – A Thinking BUM No kidding! Kudos to you, and I only hope that you soon see the day when you can get confirmation that you’ve gotten through to someone…

I seem to remember a time a while ago when I sent a 15 page defense of the resurrection of Jesus that was going to be answered and never was. Just saying, it’s not just the Christians here who don’t answer direct questions. In the case I’m talking about, BUM didn’t answer because he couldn’t, he didn’t answer because his real life got too busy. It happens. Not making a response isn’t = lose.

“Procreation is the whole reason for marriage” (paraphrase) This is absolute crap. What about married couples who CANNOT conceive? Does that invalidate their marriage? I submit that procreation is but ONE reason for marriage. Another (possibly higher) reason is the display of love between the two people. In marriage the husband and wife imitate God in the trinity, the joining of two distinct

persons to make one. Also, there is a difference between birth control and not having sex during the fertile periods. Natural Family Planning is nothing more than common sense. If a couple feel they are not ready to be parents or able to support a family they record and project the likely timing of the wife’s cycle. This allows them to use their free will in choosing to try to conceive or

trying not to conceive. The difference between NFP and birth control is that BC either physically prevents the sperm from reaching the egg or the mediation prevents implantation or the release of an egg. The problem with this is that the couple is then taking their free will and imposing that will upon the possibly creative plan of God.

If you want an line of thought AGAINST BC, consider this. IF the married couple is to represent the Trinity and thus God, they must be creative as God is creative. This does not mean they must present offspring but that they must be open to the possibility of having children. In being open they will not have an abortion or use contraception. Again NFP is not contraception or birth control.

A problem that fundamentalists will encounter in this line of thinking is that it is not directly backed by scripture. That is one of the beauties of being Catholic. We have scripture AND tradition. We also have a large body of Bishops and Cardinals who come together when there is something of great importance to settle. (Vatican II covered more than our Mass) The new teachings arrive from

Scripture, Tradition (handed down from the Apostles and early Church fathers), and our moral systems. All teachings fit together as a quilt. If an idea is against God it will directly conflict with other parts of the moral system, tradition OR scripture (or all three).

So where does it say that EVERYTIME we have sex it must be to multiply? So if a hammer is created to drive nails…..it must never do anything else? It can ONLY drive nails? God gave us free will…nice try on twisting the context though.

“So where does it say that EVERYTIME we have sex it must be to multiply?” Where do I say that? Where do I say that that’s what the Bible teaches? I think you’re trying to argue with me, but I think you disagree with things I haven’t said.