History of BUM – updated.
“Were you raised Christian, or one of the many sects of Christianity? Or where you always athiest? Just curious about how you came to the beliefs, or lack there of, that you have now. [Lillake]”
Here is a rehashed version of my earlier “religious” history.
I used to be Catholic. Very Catholic. Hardcore, yay Catholicism, Catholic.
Damn Catholic. Hell, I was strongly considering being a priest. Yes, the BUM was seriously considering going into the priesthood. So, what happened?
Glad you asked.
So, it’s the summer after my 10th grade year in high school. I have read the entire Bible by this time in my life. I have just been confirmed that spring, and, the search for colleges has seriously started for me. I had to decide whether or not I was going into the seminary or into the standard college experience. So, for the first time in my life, I questioned what I believed. I asked myself, ok, I believe that the Catholic Church is correct, and I believe that if it is truly correct, then I should go all the way and become a priest. Now, I was born into a Catholic family, so the first question came up, “would I have been Catholic, or would I come to the conclusion that Catholicism is correct no matter what my starting point, or what?”
Tricky question to answer.
The belief that I had as a Catholic went something like this: If you tried to be a good person, and did good things as much as possible, then you most likely went to heaven. And if you weren’t so good, you went to purgatory, where if you realized the wrongness of your life, and could work toward heaven, but if you didn’t feel sorry for being bad, then you ended up in hell. Also, God wanted to have a relationship with everyone, but you could ignore him if you wanted. I thought Jesus’ example and the point of his being here was to set an example of how to live, etc. – I did not view his death as being a main point except as a fulfillment of prophecy.
So I thought about it for a while on my own. I really really wanted Catholicism to be the answer. I wanted to believe, but I knew that if I gave it every test I could think of and it passed – that my faith would be that much stronger. It’s like asking “how strong is that rope you got there?” Unless you can point to the things it’s lifted, you don’t know how strong that rope is.
The toughest question that I felt needed to be answered is best explained by an example.
Let’s say that “A” stands for either Christianity or Islam, and the “B” stands for the other.
Let’s assume that either A or B is true (as in, the faith of one of them accurately describes reality and how to get to heaven).
Both A and B say that a person must have faith in each’s version of God – as a necessary (but not necessarily sufficient) condition to get to heaven.
Faith is – by definition – believing something with a conviction that is not in proportion to the evidnece. If you had proof that something was correct, and you believed it, it isn’t faith anymore.
Now a person that *knows* that either A or B is correct (that’s a premise), but doesn’t know which one has to pick. Again, being that each requires a leap of faith in at least one point, and neither is proveable, your choice is in part arbitrary, or based on “feeling”. People on both side claim the “feeling” part…
So, God, it is said, judges a person based on faith (at least in part); and by condemning those people who chose incorrectly to spend eternity in hell because he picked the wrong faith-based system, God is a tyrant.
The idea that God would “JUDGE” someone based on picking the “correct choice” when there *by definition* isn’t enough evidence to make an informed decision – was highly troubling to me.
That’s about as far as I got by myself, but my belief that “specific belief in God” wasn’t a necessary part of salvation still fared pretty well. I also figured that if a person denied God’s existence, he strongly hates God and just can’t stand the idea that someone/thing is higher than him.
Then I stumbled onto OpenDiary (as it was known back then). Specifically AtheistUnderUrBed’s diary. First thing I read was the series of entries criticizing the Ten Commandments. Who could have anything against them? People who wanted to be able to steal? Perhaps murder? I read through the critique of all 10 Commandments, and I only disagreed with one of the criticisms, but I found another hole in that one myself.
Over time I was reading a lot of AUUB’s entries, and reading the diaries of people who left notes in the diary, especially if the entries they wrote concerned religion. I was an occational anon noter for a good long while, but I mostly just read the stuff. I was reading all sorts of other books and websites…I considered myself “seriously questioning” my Catholic faith for a good 7-8 months, and then I considered myself a weak atheist for a while. I didn’t actually “say” I was an atheist for a while after that, and it was weird saying it.
I chose to keep my non-belief to myself, and even though I was an atheist from midway through my junior year in high school, I didn’t tell my parents until the summer before my sophomore year in college. I only told a couple high school friends in high school as well. It was pretty rough. I still went to church with my family weekly (and still do, actually). I don’t go while I’m at college because…well, it’s up to me, but at home, we go.
I started my OpenDiary here at the very end of my senior year in high school – I had already been an atheist for just over a year at the time. I’ve had an excellent experience so far. I currently consider myself a strong atheist with regard to any god I’ve ever heard of and a secular humanist.
I am currently finishing my senior year of college (on time, Magna Cum Laude – unless something really weird happens in the next 2 months) where I’m triple majoring in Physics, Math and Philosophy with an honors thesis in Physics (The Theoretical Spatial and Momentum Distribution of Big-Bang Relic Neutrinos).
Thanks to everyone who’s given me good stuff to think about. Thinking is what I do best, even as a career BUM.
Wow, that was long. Maaaybe I’ll come back and read it later!
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I find it amusing that most people who become athiest or agnostic are former Catholics. It’s kind of ironic, really. I guess that really ought to say something about the religion itself. Rave
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“had already been an atheist for just over a year at the time. I’ve had an excellent experience so far. I currently consider myself a strong atheist with regard to any god I’ve ever heard of and a secular humanist.” — lol! You sound exactly like the people you tease for being “religious” — Bon
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“I’ve had an excellent experience so far…” — lol! You sound exactly like the people you tease for being “religious” — Bon [~Backstabbed!~] That was refering to my OD experience, not my atheist experience. I don’t understand what you mean by I sound like the people I “tease” if you were refering to something else…
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“Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.” – C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity Just wondering if you’ve ever read it, I’m curious of your views on it
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oh, just a little background on the qoute..if you wanna know the rest of the context http://koti.mbnet.fi/amoira/atheistx.htm
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“Just wondering if you’ve ever read it, I’m curious of your views on it [Serenitys Peace]” I know the context – well, if meaning is a human construct, of course the universe wouldn’t have it (cosmically, that is) – and of course we’d be able to see it. It’s almost like saying, that if the universe didn’t have a feeling of hunger, we would never know that it didn’t. Near-nonsense.
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lol…ok, what you just said really didn’t make much sense either…but i find it rather ironic how you seem to have an answer for everyone..heh, so..do you consider yourself your own god?
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“lol…ok, what you just said really didn’t make much sense either…” If my answer didn’t make sense, then what do you think Lewis is talking about when he says “meaning”? I can think of no other definition than the human interaction and human imposed value systems. To say that the universe doesn’t have meaning is obvious – to say that we would never realize it is ridiculous.
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“but i find it rather ironic how you seem to have an answer for everyone..heh, so..do you consider yourself your own god? [Serenitys Peace]” Ironic? And I have no qualms about having answers – as long as “I don’t know” counts as an answer as well. No, I do not consider myself my own god. Do you?
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BUM, have you read ‘Mere Christianity’ in it’s entirety? If not, I would highly resommend it. Even being a Christian, it brought more light to some truth.
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I just have to say, I love diaries like yours and AUUB’s. I love the debating and the rational thinking that most christians don’t possess.
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I must say, your diary has been a guilty pleasure for me for a few months now. I usually just lurk about. Anyway, I think that your entries are very rational and intelligent. I don’t agree with EVERYTHING you say, but I do agree with a great deal of it. Well done, and keep it up. <3.
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Fascinating! 🙂
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wow. you’re… really smart! 😀 Of course, I knew that already. 🙂
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“BUM, have you read ‘Mere Christianity’ in it’s entirety?” Yes.
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Who’s to decide what’s rational and what’s not? I am not my own God, I’m a Christian and I’m not ashamed of it. I like to know how other people view things though. But if you have no God, higher being, or philosophy to believe in, doesn’t that just leave yourself to satisfy…therefore, in a sense, wouldn’t you be your own god?
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Some of what you’re saying like I never understand what the other person is saying and some of what you’re saying I don’t understand. Maybe the fact I don’t understand his questions causes me not to undersand your answers — ya think? wow that should have been a given! lol! — Bon
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“But if you have no God, higher being, or philosophy to believe in, doesn’t that just leave yourself to satisfy…therefore, in a sense, wouldn’t you be your own god? [Serenitys Peace]” This is why I qualify “any god I’ve heard of” – because some people have strange definitions of god. What do you mean when you use the term?
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From What I can see from many of your entries… you dont actually understand what the bible is saying, only what churches say it says. That explains alot!
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my definition would be anything that you put your faith and time into..something(or someone) you live for. What you promote. Some people live for making money, some for drugs, some for their job and climbing the ladder of success. Some for buddah, some for Ali, some for God…I suppose this is not an easy subject to discuss in a little note, it can go much deeper, but i guess this is the surface
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“From What I can see from many of your entries… you dont actually understand what the bible is saying, only what churches say it says. That explains alot! [determined gal]” Name a specific that you think I don’t understand. I’ve read the entire, Bible, have you?
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Re [determined gal]’s note: Dude! You aren’t reading it with your special 3-D mind-enhancing glasses!!! Did someone rip them out of the Bible you bought? I hate it when they do that. And then the Bible store won’t take it back and you’re stuck with a useless stack of paper… Gah!
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“[Serenitys Peace]” Yes, there are things that I am dedicated to that are beyond myself. Truth is one of them. Respect for humans is another.
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Roman Catholic, damn. I suppose with that as a premise you were destined to believe in nothing. I’m a theist and like you once were, was quite zealous about what I believed in. I majored in Philosophy, which was something that a lot of my christian mates found to be quite risky. It is risky, but only if you’re not well grounded (unarmed) before you hit the apparent ‘battlefield’ (c)
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Not to imply that you weren’t, but..could that have just been the case? Could you not have looked at other Christian denominations if it wasn’t working for you, or did you just lose the plot with theism and the omni-god stuff in general? I don’t know, i haven’t read much in this diary but (going from this entry) it sounds like you didn’t put up much of a defense once yu started reading AUUb
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Triple majoring in physics, maths and philosophy…magna cum laude? You must be stretching the truth at least a little
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Triple majoring in physics, maths and philosophy…magna cum laude? You must be stretching the truth at least a little [evermore] It’s possible that I might only graduate “Cum Laude” and not Magna – but until that happens, I’m not stretchin’ nothin. I’d post my transcript, except that that’s probably not smart…
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The problem seems to be that your version of Catholicism failed you. Perhaps even your version of Christianity. Several things that you wrote about Catholicism did not actually match Catholic/Christian teaching. But that is beside the point. If you were seeking the source of truth, then really it wouldn’t have been a religion, since religion quotes God as it’s source. So in other words,
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the faults may have been using a religion as an intermediary for the source of truth, and not the God (source) of that truth. Also, relying on your own conclusions, perceptions, or understandings. If there really is a God (or to find out ‘if’), then it would seem appropriate to seek God in a spiritual way rather than a human way of human to human debates. It goes back to the issue of source;
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humans aren’t the source. With God, (being supposedly a spiritual being) it would only make sense to ‘find’ God in a spiritual way. Of course, what spiritual way might that be? Well you can’t think in terms of religion, because religion is not the source. There may be certain revealed truths from God the source within religions, but then there is the religion’s interpretations, etc. A religious
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wall is sometimes an obstruction to finding God. Again, don’t seek human religions, theories, theologies, etc, to find God. It must be on a spiritual level, nothing else. Perhaps then, after finding God on a spiritual plain, he will be more evident in the physical because then you will know the divine source.
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But I suppose before journying into such things one must believe in the possibility of spiritual realms to begin with. So maybe one could play along with an assumption and go from there.
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I was raised a christian (though not strict)….now a very strong atheist. This was interesting to read.
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Hmm.. Want to talk about something else? When people say they don’t believe in God, there’s always a huge response. Anyway, I’ve just arrived. I like people who think. What else do you think about? Sasha2912
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