Faith discussion…

Wow, classrooms have changed a lot. When I was in school nobody debated the empirical answer to an empirical question without having the correct answer. On a real life and personal level I have never felt obliged to tell someone they were wrong when I wasn’t sure what was right.

You’re right, you don’t need to know the answer to know a likely wrong answer when you hear one, but telling someone they are wrong without knowing what’s right makes you a jerk AND equally wrong.

And your example has a measurable outcome, a minute or less with a piece of scrap paper leads you too the answer 88833359316. However, if a guy popped out with 88833359317 in your analogy he’d be just as wrong as 5, and yet you wouldn’t know to point out the error of his ways as you were too busy telling the one guy he was wrong to bother with figuring out the right answer.

Faith, however, is not measured empirically in the same manner. It could be. For instance; How many people believe there is a conscious design to the universe? This would get you a much different number than your favorite grind about unicorns or sock gods. It also is much more measurable than other attendant beliefs inherent in many religions.

Then question would then be why? Are the majority of humans idiots? Or is there some deep seated psychological need? Or is it possible that this belief holds some universal truth to mankind in general and only the abhorrent don’t posses this knowledge? I don’t know, and I submit that you don’t either.

I do know that when I hear you screech at folks that it’s the wrong answer I feel a need to protect who you are attacking as opposed to agree with you. Like your analogy you point out someone elses fault and offer no solution.

I’ve been reading your entries for awhile now, wondering when and how, or even if, I should respond. Today I have just a couple of questions to ask you, if you don’t mind sparing a few moments… What gives hope and purpose to your life? And what brings joy and happiness to your heart? xx

ryn: HA ha. Who really cares?

You’re right, you don’t need to know the answer to know a likely wrong answer when you hear one, but telling someone they are wrong without knowing what’s right makes you a jerk AND equally wrong. [haredawg] So what do you say to the guy selling snake oil to cure AIDS? Nothing? Do you have to know the cure for AIDS to let people know that this guy is fleecing hopeful people?

Who are likening to a person purposely selling something he knows doesn’t work, a christian, any christian? Are you saying that anyone of faith is selling snake oil? I’ve never heard you say a single word about someone who didn’t believe thier religion purposing it as a cure to someone who desperately needed it. Is that what you’re saying now? Or is anyone with faith selling snake oil?

Or are you saying the guy in your analogy with the answer five was trying to hoodwink someone? Your analogies are poorly thought out. Someone purposely lying to pray on the hopeful is a whole different beast than someone taking an honest stab at an answer. I wouldn’t tell a guy working on a cure for aids he is wrong, I also wouldn’t assume his intent were exploitation.

“Your analogies are poorly thought out. Someone purposely lying to pray on the hopeful is a whole different beast than someone taking an honest stab at an answer.” Who says the guy selling snake oil is purposely lying to preying on the hopeful? Sure, there are some that know it’s a lie, but there just as many who actually believe they have some cure. What do YOU say to those that believe?

hey acupuncture works dude. The metal needles short out nerves on certain points in the bosy temp. releiving pain. done enough it deadens pain in that area. it isn’t all in the ol noodle either. I’ve read enough, bore witness and experienced it to know its totally kosher..but again this has nothing with what you are saying so keep on trucking

The term snake oil implies an untested and reliable cure. You didn’t call it medicine, you didn’t call it a beta test, you didn’t say the guy with it was a doctor you said he was a salesman. It’s ridiculous to suspect given your presentation that the salesman believes it to be anything but snake oil, a placebo at best. It’s a bad analogy for religion, unless you’re saying the faithful …

all just present faith as a way of selling it to the rubes. Pretty cynical and poorly backed. There are evangelists just out for a buck, there are also people who really believe what they believe. The ratio? I haven’t a clue, but I suspect your implication is off base. See, I just tried your tactic. Funny, doesn’t make me feel better or smarter or superior at all. What does it do for you?

Oh, and to answer your question; ever notice in a number of drug tests that there is a number of people on the placebo who get better. Some of these folks, blind placebo subjects, believe it is the “drug”. What would I say to someone who was getting better off a placebo? “Wonderful, glad to hear it. have a nice day.” What would you do? Ruin their psychological high and health?

“hey acupuncture works dude.” I know there’s evidence for that, but in my entry I wrote about “acupressure” – which is BS.

“The term snake oil implies an untested and reliable cure.” There are plenty of purveyors of magnet therapy that actually believe their own crap. That is a “snake oil” cure for a whole list of ailments. You haven’t answered my question: What do YOU say to the person who is selling magnet therapy crap (for example) who actually believes it?

I answered your question 16 minutes before you said I didn’t, though you didn’t mention magnet therapy the first time, my answer stays the same though.

Also, you said those who believe the first time you asked, not those selling. I think someone who doesn’t believe in what they are selling is a fool and a liar and someone who does believe what they are selling tends to make a good living at it. But, you know, I was in sales. It’s a capitalist answer.

It is a little odd that you use an analogy whereby someone is selling a fake cure to reference religion and religious adherents. What is it that so many people suffer from that they need to grasp at straws for a cure? How have you tried to cure yourself? Or are you one of the select few that are immune?

you know you were right. I do apologize. I’ve been at work since sunday. lack of sleep makes you read things funny

I’d like to see you address haredawg’s points about the placebo affect. Would you tell someone who was getting better from “snake oil” that it wasn’t really working, when you had nothing to offer that would work?

I think people that think Christianity is absurd are similar to the people that drive the same make of car, only because that’s what their use to, not knowing what their missing out on in another make of car. We fill are selves with money, family, things, etc. .. thinking that these are what will make us happy and live a fulfilled life, when Christ is the only one who can fulfill it.

A doctor or a salesman? Whoever gives out sheepskins for religion should be shot…Theyre all sales men…

^^^ You mean like Harvard? Offering those stupid people Doctorate degrees in Theology. Shoot em Down dag nabbit, damn liberal edjumacators anyhow.

you know i get a lot of fulfillment form my loving girlfriend and family. The declare the only peace I will ever have is with GOd is absurd.

Of course, it sounds like you’re presupposing here that the only reason to believe in a divine being like God is by faith. That simply isn’t the case. There are many good reasons to believe that some sort of first cause exists in the universe, and further good reasons to believe that this first cause is a personal being.

man, my notes have been peppered with typos up the ying yang. And stealth, you keep saying there are reasons about the origins of the universe, purposes for all things, and the like.care to share?Assuming that an ant cleans the forest floor as devine intervention is making a conclusion without any proof. All people like moi or ATM.er ATB want is proof. fact. Not YOUR version of truth. or anyones

“Just the facts darlin”. I asked a priest once why is the sky blue. He gave me a long winded explination about God and colour and beauty. I was much more interested in the reality of the situation. Maybe Jesus didnt walk on water. or turn water to wine, but it is clear he was a nice guy who wants peace and happiness. Ghandi, martin Luther King jr, John Lennon. Maybe instead of worrying so much

About the ifs and or buts about God, the origins of the universe…we should take religion as what it should be. A guide. People interpret it incorrectly all the time. Why muss and fuss over the obvious factual inconsistencies in the bible versus observed fact? Use the words of such great men to live your life for the good of everyone. Not your selfish desire to get into heaven or appease god

god or what not. That’s where humanism and general acceptance of all peoples comes into play. To argue with someone who is not a scientist about science is silly and a waste of time. What ever proof anyone has is subject to debate after debate. But unless you really understand EVERYTHING there is to know about evolution/religion. learn before you open your mouths. ugg this is too random a note

As I’ve told you, Ride, I’m working on getting my writing posted on the logical reasons to believe in God. For now, I’d like to take issue with one thing you said. You said that, “To argue with someone who is not a scientist about science is silly and a waste of time.” I couldn’t agree less. Is it only scientists who have the right to talk about science? Is it only clerics who can talk about

God? Is it only athletes who can talk about sports? I don’t disagree that there is need for careful definition of terms in a discussion with people who have disparate levels of understanding, but to assume a Christian necessarily knows nothing of science is a fallacy. There are as many Christians who know nothing of science as scientists who know nothing about Christianity.

There is also a distinction between scientists who are methodological naturalists and those who have other philosophical underpinings. Science is not the only way of knowing. At the very least, there are a variety of intuitive truths (law of contradiction, etc) that cannot be determined by scientific methods yet still are foundational to all scientific endeavors.

As for evolution, I happen to know enough about it to be conversant. But I’ve not seen any substantive claims made here I feel the need to take issue with. If there is a case someone would like to make, I’d be more than willing to hear it.

Ride; ATB makes for a poor ATM. I tried getting money out of his slot and he damn near jumped out of his skin.

Well we don’t share the same beliefs, but you make a humorous argument. As a Christian, I apparently disagree, but there is good reason for my faith, which one day I hope you will learn of it, and find evidence in your own heart to believe. I am glad you found reason to comment on my argument, as I enjoy to learn of the views of others…often this is an impetus for my own spiritual growth.

I don’t believe that people should have faith just for something to believe in… faith is conviction… I have faith that the Word is truth. I accept the Bible as knowledge… and yes that is what we humans do search for truth and knowlege and I am comforted in knowing I have embarked on it in my journey. I have heard the argument that Christianity is such a black & white religion… that

Christians aren’t open to the philosophies and faiths of others… As Christians we are called to be like Christ ( we all fail), but The most important likeness is love. Christ loves all people and forgives all sins, but as far as adopting the beliefs of others, I have learned that there are truths in all religions, but “even a stopped clock is right twice a day”.

RYN: Then dont say it, they arent gonna arrest you if you dont say it. Thats what the beliefs of most people seem to be. They view those two words are evil and think that you will be arrested if you dont say it. Just dont say it, no one will harass you. Say one nation under no god for all I care.

RYN: Well what about my brother in laws mom who was repeatedly told she wouldnt live longer than 6 months, and she lived for another 5 years or so. You dont think someone was lookin over her? And for that reference I made in the entry, it wasnt science that helped the person live, because science said they only had a small chance. So something else had to be a factor right?

RYN: Of course truth matters, but spirituality isn’t within the realm of science, so the definition of truth changes greatly. It moves from being an absolute (the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics) to being relative (does belief in a deity provide inner peace to you specifically). That inner peace and happiness is what religion is for. Some people are simply better people because…

…of their religion. They are happier and more capable of facing the world. The problems with religion come when people twist the religion, straying from the 4 qualities of a good religion I outlined. If you want to say someone is wrong for believing in magic or demons, remember that no one can ever say with 100% confidence that anything doesn’t exist. It may be likely that it doesn’t…

…exist if there is no observable evidence, but one who attempts to prove non-existence is doomed to failure. If you want to discuss the physics of the universe and explain the lack of evidence to the existence of ESP, that’s fine. But at the end of the day, the results of your research is “inconclusive.” Science is but one method of seeking knowledge. Faith is another for things outside science

Sorry, those three longwinded notes above are mine. OD logged me out

“I’d like to see you address haredawg’s points about the placebo affect. Would you tell someone who was getting better from “snake oil” that it wasn’t really working, when you had nothing to offer that would work? [ComeOnDieYoung]” Would you allow a person to spend $100/week on a placebo? How about $1000? What would be an amount that you would find it ethical that they be told the truth?

What gives hope and purpose to your life? And what brings joy and happiness to your heart? xx [taylor.] My family and friends, being successful (not money) at life in general, having health, creative outlets, etc.