Debate went well

Quick summary:

Phillip argued that: Evolution cannot justify free will, ethics, and artistic creativity.

Naturalism means that everything happens because of forces. Which means that everything is determined.

If it isn’t determined, then it is indeterminate.

Either way, determinate, or indeterminate – naturalism means that free choice doesn’t exist.

If free choice doesn’t exist, then artistic creativity and ethics cannot exist.

Now, if somehow, naturalism can account for free will, you still cannot justify ethics. Naturalism, and science “describe” things. Ethics “prescribes” things. You can never derive a “prescription” from a “description” without a base set of values. These values for a theist come from God, for a person who doesn’t believe in God they can’t come from anywhere.

I argued in response that I do not know whether we have free will/choice or not. I don’t think that naturalism comes down on one side or the other. Perhaps it’s a thing to look into – something to figure out.

Moving on, a moral sense has evolved so that characteristics that promote the individual and group tend to be selected for.

Ethics can be justified from a few rational principles, treating similar things similar (you have to recognize that you are the same kind as others), etc. which essentially gives you a form of the golden rule.

It went well. I was the only non-Christian in the room, but they listened and were very respectful. One guy helped defend the naturalist position because he thought that Phillip’s argument against it was baseless as well.

Just an update for all of you in OD Land.

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April 22, 2004

Thanks for the update. Sounds interesting.

April 23, 2004

Sounds interesting, I hope you go into further detail about your side of it later…

April 23, 2004

hello again 🙂 ryn: just because something cannot be proved by science (essentially, your objection) does not make it false or unbelievable. as for evidence, we have the words of Jesus; if you don’t believe him, there’s no conviction to believe in hell. but if you do – because you have faith – then these arguments naturally follow. granted, you may blast faith, but many atheists who pride …

April 23, 2004

themselves on supposedly maintaining logic in their thought place too much faith in their own reasoning abilities, in fact. so you choose what you believe in, but everyone believes in something.

April 23, 2004

No, I would never say, “proved” but “semblance of evidence for believing that it or anything like it exists”. Cause if believe in God w/o empirical evidence of it or anything like it exists, why not believe in invisible unicorns?

April 23, 2004

ryn: because there’s no best-selling book that has been around for centuries about invisible unicorns, nor a history of churches all around the world in spite of persecution in many places, nor bookstores full of books on invisible unicorns (btw, i got a nice bunch of books at my fave Christian bookstore today :)… i could go on & on. faith doesn’t just come out of nowhere; people of faith ….

April 23, 2004

plant seeds of faith in the minds of unbelievers. Christianity has stood the test of time and is the best tradition (and more) on earth, so please don’t compare it to something silly like invisible unicorns.

April 24, 2004

Evolution. My Christian mother taught me that evolution was like building a house. First you dig the foundation but you can’t call it a house. Then piece by piece the structure is put together. And an attic is not “THE” best part of the house. It is the whole house that counts. There are many rooms in the house and the smallest one may be the most nessessary.

April 25, 2004

Why would a religuos person think that legalism is a bad thing . . . I thought I knew what it meant but I looked it up anyway and that made it seem stronger. It said “strict comforment to a lagal, religous or morale code.” So one would have to be an extrmely liberaly religous person to be against that. You know what I’ll just admit I don’t understand the venacular and/or the meaning behind it

April 25, 2004

and I’m going to quit thinking so deep into this [and you know I do] before I give myself a headache.

April 25, 2004
April 25, 2004

It won’t sign my notes and I can’t type either it’s still me but you probably knew that .. . [Smile_GOD_luvs_u] I’m signed in but it won’t sign my notes.

“Christianity has stood the test of time and is the best tradition (and more) on earth, so please don’t compare it to something silly like invisible unicorns.” That wasn’t the funniest thing I’ve read today, but it’s definitely in the running. 😉 *wonders what Bearer would have to say about the bestselling (!) Harry Potter series* Glad to hear the debate went well, ATB. =)

April 25, 2004

Thanks for this entry. Good to hear things went as well as they did. 🙂

April 25, 2004

*Wondering why Bearer of the Sword isn’t a Hindu since Hinduism long predates Christianity and has “stood the test of time” even better*

im glad they treated you well, whit walabe84

If you’re such an opponent to Christianity why do you care to disprove it so much? You’re not swaying anyone’s opinion. You just are trying to cause controversy to occupy the obvious large amount of time you have to do nothing but read Christian diaries. Leave people alone. If you want to make an impact go feed starving children in Ethiopia. Read a Bible. Just stop being so ignorant.

April 26, 2004

“You’re not swaying anyone’s opinion.” Actually, I am. And the objections I have to Christianity and other delusions are warranted. I feel that I have an obligation to the truth. “Read a Bible. Just stop being so ignorant.” I’ve read Bible, and I plan on reading the Koran this summer. Have you ever read a book on atheism? If not, I’d be careful how I throw around words like “ignorant”.

April 27, 2004

LOL religion has no place in the government? Yeahhhh you forgot the fact that this country was founded on religious principles… it should have stayed that way.

Why should I read a book on atheism when I don’t care about it? I don’t go around criticizing atheists, I don’t even try to “disprove” atheist. I am saying instead of being so concerned with disproving something, leave it alone. Let people think for themselves. If they agree or disagree it is their decision. You don’t believe in God, well I do. It’s simple really. I think you’re obviously

very smart. I think that you have a great talent for debating. However, I think you don’t realize that you’re really trying to make yourself feel better about your beliefs. People who try to disprove something obviously have a reason to believe it is true. Therefore, they try to disprove it. I am not forcing my belief in God on others or on you. I just think CHristians should have the same respect

Sorry for calling you ignorant. Shouldn’t have done that. I hope that maybe you’ll realize that not all Christians want to..”shove”..the religion off on you. We just do what you are trying so hard to do. We are trying to prove we have a valid point. Maybe you think we don’t, maybe we think you don’t. I’ll just hope you’ll give us the same respect I’m giving you. A right to your own opinion. Thanks

you sure are confused or your searching… because if you did believe that there is no God at all.. then why do you search? I don’t understand how you try to debate christian topics if you don’t believe that there is a God.. if we were to question if there is a God and debate and look for the answers.. we would be wasting life… quit trying to debate things because they alway go in a loop…..

no matter how hard you try…. you’ll never get to the end.. because its not a visual evidence matter.. if it was a visual evidence then why would you have to have faith???

how are you an athiest when you are searching for the answer.. that would make you agnostic right?

April 29, 2004

Free will: in an infinate univers all possiblities exist thus you can choose any plosibility. Ethics: god tells us that she wrote the law in our mindes and hearts, this is our conscience. follow that always and trust it and you well have happiness and ethics. Artistic creativity: we were made in god’s image thus we are the very image of artistic creativity. much love, kit

May 1, 2004

RYN: Yeah, I noticed that too but OD will not let me edit the entry…GRRRRR!

May 1, 2004

congratulations on your debate the summary wasn’t the greatest but thats purely opinion it rhymed and didn’t flow it confused my brain ryming things are supposed to flow together. Philosophy and poetry should never be combined, because poetry you read with your heart and it takes a brain to read philosophy. All is well here it was good to talk with you earlier read my entry tell me honestly what

May 1, 2004

you think remember I love you and I can’t believe you admitted to being raised in Texas that is too funny! Sorry for blabbing it on here I’m not trying to embarress you but I know I have. Chimpo is from TX in case you din’t know why I thought that was funny. I really don’t like him and it’s hard to not hate him and to love him but I try.

May 2, 2004

you see he goes on to disprove this assertion but his refutation is no where nearly as elloquent and tight as his argument. it is infact interesting to watch him pull the wool over his own eyes to allow himself a God.

May 3, 2004

RYN: Thanks 🙂 I’d tell you that you could say what you wanted to Parliament in my diary, but he would never get to see it because I’ve blocked him. So much for that BS.

you think rightly.Read Gen9:5+6. His Word does not change. Check out http://www.twelvetribes.com Peace