Bible says: Moses was physically resurrected…
Do not feel compelled to click on my ad above. – BUM
Got a few interesting notes on the last entry… I’ll respond to just one in this entry:
"I am an eyewitness, I know Him, He lives in me, He in fact is my life.
I move, live and have my being in Him.
There are so many flaws of your presumptions, I’ll just give you one.
There is a vast difference between resucation and ressurection.
Those like Lazerus died again, Jesus lives forevermore." – TERMINATOR
Let’s step through this:
"I am an eyewitness, I know Him, He lives in me, He in fact is my life." – TERMINATOR
This is a ridiculous claim. You don’t have access to any source of information outside of your own head.
You could easily show that you do, to me at least, by asking Jesus to reveal to you the 15 digits of the number that I just wrote down on a piece of paper that I’ve pinned under my computer monitor. I’ll be anxiously awaiting Jesus’ response.
I’m not even sure what you mean by "eyewitness" — what did you witness with your eyes?
If you think you witnessed the resurrection, then tell me, was there 1 angel or 2 angels at the tomb that Sunday morning?
"There is a vast difference between resucation and ressurection." – TERMINATOR
Right.
People who were physically resurrected before Jesus include Elijah and Moses.
So, when Elijah physically went to heaven in a chariot of fire… and then physically came back to earth, how was this different than Jesus’ trick?
For reference Elijah taken to heaven in a chariot of fire:
2 Kings 2:1;11-12 (NRSV)
"Now when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. … As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven. Elisha kept watching and crying out, ‘Father, father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!’ But when he could no longer see him, he grasped his own clothes and tore them in two pieces."
And when Elijah physically shows back up to talk to Jesus and his disciples:
Mark 9:2-8 (NRSV)
Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Then Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!’ Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus.
Maybe you’ll say that since Elijah went to heaven without first physically dying, and Jesus died and was buried.
If so, I’ll change my question to be: So when Moses physically died and was buried, and later physically came back to earth, how was this different than Jesus’ trick?
For reference, Moses dying and being buried:
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NRSV)
"Then Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, at the Lord’s command. He was buried in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor, but no one knows his burial place to this day."
When Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus on the mountain, was there a burial plot in Moab that was suddenly empty?
Wait a second… Elijah went to heaven before Jesus was even born. So people could get to heaven without Jesus… so Jesus was unnecessary.
You can’t even argue that death and resurrection couldn’t happen without Jesus’ sacrifice because at least Moses died and physically came back to life before Jesus ever died on the cross.
If animal sacrifice could take away sins, then, what’s the point of Jesus’ sacrifice? In fact, didn’t God say that animal sacrifices would be the way to take away sins forever?
Leviticus 16:29-34 (NRSV)
This shall be a statute to you for ever: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall deny yourselves, and shall do no work, neither the citizen nor the alien who resides among you. For on this day atonement shall be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord. It is a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall deny yourselves; it is a statute for ever. The priest who is anointed and consecrated as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement, wearing the linen vestments, the holy vestments. He shall make atonement for the sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the people of Israel once in the year for all their sins. And Moses did as the Lord had commanded him.
Man… how many times did God say that this was a thing that was going to happen forever? 3? 5?
And the sins of these people, they’re atoned for, people are forgiven, made clean and clear, and this is how things are supposed to happen FOREVER.
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I like a thinking man. Oh this is so easy, let’s take the hard one… about me being an eyewitness. I was there when It (He) happened to me. (And still is) You’re doing good boy, keep it going.
Warning Comment
thanks for this entry. very educational.
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Have you considered people like Criss Angel? He is amazing isn’t he? Or is the things he does real? Point is, what can be absolutely proven? However, one can absolutely know beyond a shadow of doubt. Did you read the entry I told you about?
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I love discussing this with you but you’re messing with the wrong person. I do not need to prove anything, the burden is on you to disprove the Bible’s claims. Can’t do it can you?
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“However, one can absolutely know beyond a shadow of doubt.” No you can’t. You can know that you -think- something is the way it is beyond a shadow of doubt, but you can’t actually know that something is beyond a shadow of doubt. For all you know, existence as you know it could be an illusion.
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And no, the burden isn’t on ATB to disprove the Bible’s claims. Remember, innocent until proven guilty? It’s the Bible’s job (and thus it’s believers) to prove it’s claims.
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Criss Angel is a magician who readily admits as much. On CNN to Larry King he said: “no one has the ability, that I’m aware of, to do anything supernatural, psychic, talk to the dead.”
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I’m confused. Is Terminator saying that Jesus was a magician? When is your book actually coming out?
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On Criss Angel, I understand illusion and magic. I am a Gospel ventriloquist, it seems like my voice is thrown. I do not know how Criss does those things, I do know they are amazing illusions. Someone would say I saw him elevate with my own eyes along with others. But did he?
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“For all you know, existence as you know it could be an illusion.” LOL… Holding my hand to my heart dying of laughter. Somebody please tell me He didn’t say this. If I knew it, I wouldn’t exist. Would I?
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“I do not need to prove anything, the burden is on you to disprove the Bible’s claims.” – TERMINATOR I’m not talking about the bible, you claimed to be an “eyewitness” to a 2,000 year old dead guy — the first time I’ve encountered such a claim. As far as I can tell, you’re claiming to have an imaginary all-powerful omniscient friend that you have contact with. The burden ison YOU when you make such a ridiculous claim. I’m calling BS, and I gave you a rather simple way to back up your claim in a very convincing manner. Ask your imaginary friend to tell you the number that I wrote down. Apparently, this is too difficult a task for Jesus…
Warning Comment
It’s ok, I understand your problem. I really do. Let me help you with that… If Jesus Christ is my imaginary friend, then I am imaginary also, after all, as your friend Sir What’s-His-name said, we might not exist at all. Seriously, have you read the entry I told you about?
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“have you read the entry I told you about?” What entry? And when did you tell me about it?
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RYN: You know You’re right about me not being able to prove the existance of God. But what I can tell you is how I came to know Him and what He has done for me. Have you prayed and asked Him for yourself? Why not now? Here’s the entry http://www.opendiary.com/entryview.asp?authorcode=A110622&entry=20738&mode=date “The faith of an atheist and other stuff”
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Jodi – http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/ behold, Jesus the magician.
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“If I knew it, I wouldn’t exist. Would I?” Why not? What is existence? Does a person who is put under for an operation not exist? What about someone hallucinating? Someone who is having a psychotic episode? Just because you think something is real doesn’t make it real.
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RYN: No desire to attract you or anyone else. I do not argue when the outcome is fruitless. I have been married to the same man for 41 years. We have learned that it is fruitless to have the same arguments over and over so we just pass over them.
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Hey. I just wanted to know I haven’t forgotten my promise to write a morality based on my first principals for you. I have a draft, but I want to double check it against a few more sources before I post it. I note with amusement that again, there are two issues at play here, as they seem to be in all your entries: hermeneutics and the standard of proof. Naturalism is where we differ.
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“Naturalism is where we differ.” This is simply astounding to read… I’ve said, “I’m granting you that 2 supernatural beings exist. God and Satan. And you can communicate with both of them.” How could you think that “naturalism is where we differ” if I’m granting you that 2 supernatural beings exist and you can communicate with them???
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Come on over to my blog and read “Flee to Scandinavia” and maybe you can help some of my readers understand that religion often gets in the way of having progress in society.
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You’re a very small man for treating other people’s statements with so little gravity. And how much you think of your own preferences! You back them up with all that you can muster, but in the end it’s rhetoric and your preferences, just that, what you prefer in the end.
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“You’re a very small man for treating other people’s statements with so little gravity…” I find that people only leave notes like this when they have nothing of substance to say. They cannot respond to any point or argument that I’ve made so they just attack the person. Perhaps I’m wrong in this case and you think that you do have something useful to say — if this is the case, I invite you to say it.
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I have made my point. It is for you to show in the future whether you can learn to treat people and their experiences with anything approaching the respect with which you treat your own.
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I’ve seen people waste time by demolishing these types of examples you have used before. You change the subject, and go on to another one — without acknowledging how you intentionally misread the matter to be in an unintended and untenable light in the first place, which is part of your fundamental problem.
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All the stuff you put up here, you yourself could demolish your own ‘arguments’ of if you so choose, but instead because of your preferences you duck and weave and pretend victory — when it is all preference and rhetoric, and if you attacked it with the fervor you promoted it, you would prove it in a second — you merely.. do not wish to. Because you love what you have, the conflict and emotion.
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The ability to produce a torrent of unending foolishness so that people give up proving it wrong because it’s unending, is not victory — it’s verbiage. Remember that. The man who talks loudly enough and longly enough is no victor, he’s merely.. loud and long, and enjoying the sound of his own voice.
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So it is a fundamental problem you have, with your approach, your motivations, and reasoning. It is for you to choose whether to address it seriously or not, by putting on opposite shoes and facing your own self as if you had met yourself a stranger on the street. Only then will you see who you are with your own eyes, truly.
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LOL. ATB, you were completely correct. MS’s response was vapid and content-less. Having nothing substantial to say, s/he spoke in vagaries akin to those of a poet. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and indeed MS put forth neither evidence nor arguments soas to complete the trifecta of nothings: Nothing lost. Indeed, as long as s/he says nothing, s/he can’t lose. -TASagent
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