Kids are just little people…..*e*

Okay – some thoughts bout children and parenting and XYZ have been floating through my head for a while, and I want to write about them…. just my version of thinking outloud that I can preserve for myself.

I’ve always thought that kids were little people – heck, I call them little people half the time. It’s – it’s really a rather interesting way to look at kids – to really understand and – respect – really, their feelings/attitudes/viewpoints. I remember a while ago – most likely when I was with C’s family for one reason or another, feeling so sad at how the kids were just – dismissed. Their feelings about a matter didn’t seem to matter – it was like – you’re short, so shuddup.  And most of the time – it was about things that really, in the whole scope of things, didn’t really matter. But – it’s faster and easier and simpler to just ignore someone than it is to ‘lower’ yourself – physically and emotionally – to look at things from their point of view. And that applies to little people and big people – when you don’t understand someone else, it’s much easier to just dismiss them, and say that they must be wrong, and really, it doesn’t matter, than it is to work with them and to learn and understand and respect them.

 I’ve always known that all children do for the first few years of their life is learn how to be human – how to be people, basically. And that a huge part of parenting is being sure that you are teaching your kids the right things – by example, and by action. Each reaction to your child teaches them something, and I’ve realized that you really have to THINK about the implications of what you do – think that you don’t know anything, and examine what YOU would learn from what you are about to do with/to/for your child. Kids are notoriously observant, and they pick up on things that some adults would never even notice.

I’ve been hanging around on crunchy parenting boards – and there is a very strong no-spanking attitude there – and spanking has always been the one parenting option that I have always been half and half on. Half because I was spanked, and honestly, I took it as a joke most of the time – a ‘symbol’ of punishment, that in the long run, meant jackall to me, besides giving me encouragement to insure that I didn’t get caught. Half because – well, the whole teaching thing. Spanking is teaching your kids that it’s okay to hit someone who is smaller than you, and who isn’t doing what you want them to do…..and thinking of them as the perfect learners, and as little people – well, I’ve shifted almost totally onto the not-spanking side of the track.
I mean – how would I react if each time I did something that C didn’t like, he hauled off and slapped my hand, or took a belt/strap and gave me a few licks? I would fight back like hell, is what I would do – and it certainly wouldn’t improve our marriage, and it certainly wouldn’t make me WANT to do whatever it was he wanted me to do in the first place. 
I don’t hit my cat when he does something wrong – what’s the point of hitting him? He’s not going to associate what he DID with getting hit – he’s just going to cringe each time I try to rub him.
I don’t want my kids to think that fighting is a wise option – I want them to consider physical violence against others as an option of not only LAST resort, but also of severe duress – how will including spanking as punishment show them that physical violence is the last resort – and is only done in severe duress?  How will I teach them that it is unacceptable to hit their siblings and friends – when I, the person who is supposed to love them most – hits them ‘because I love them’??
And then, there’s the fact that spankings eeriely remind me (and almost always have – esp. when called ‘whoopings’) of slaves being beat on the plantation.  I firmly believe that the slave experience has warped every generation of AfAms in America is ways we are (and most likely always WILL be) blind to, and beating my child because they did something that I don’t approve of – well. It doesn’t sound right – it sounds like an option to either beat the spirit out of them, and encourage fear and avoidance of authority – or an encouragement to lie, and conceal, and be sneaky, and be withdrawn.
It’s – uncomfortable – thinking back on how white men and women did the same thing to my ancestors because they viewed them as little more than animals.
You don’t beat horses or dogs or dolphins or whales or elephants or tigers or lions or bears to teach them discipline and how to follow instructions – and I’m starting to feel that using spanking as discipline is basically saying that a human child is less intelligent than those animals, and unable to learn what is and is not acceptable and expected without physical pain….

But at the same time – even with all that logic – I have no CLUE of how to actually disipline children without it! It’s an on-going joke in black culture about how ‘bad’ most little white kids are because they don’t get whoopings. The concept of a ‘time-out’ is considered a weak parenting resort – a way to turn your child into a little brat who throws tantrums and cusses at their parents and grows up to shoot up schools and start illegal wars.

Just a little tap on the behind will teach them – teach them what? That I can hurt them if they don’t do what I want? Who wants to teach their kids that? Who wants to encourage their children to be little sadists in that pain will provide them control over other people? I would rather my child burn their hand on the stove, than me to spank them for trying to touch it – at least that way they will clearly understand the real danger –  that momma was trying to protect me from something that hurts – rather than momma hurting me because I was doing something she doesn’t want me to do.

*sigh*

It’s REALLY hard, even thinking about this, and that troubles me SO much. Because – logically, I mean – come on! It makes perfect sense to NOT hit your kids. I mean – I’m going to do all that I can to protect them from pain everywhere ELSE in the world – and then I’m going to inflict pain on them to protect them from pain? *sigh* It’s – stupid. It’s – really, really stupid, actually – thinking about it logically.

And it’s enourmously sad that I – and I think a lot of parents – simply don’t KNOW any other way. I mean – really. If spanking wasn’t considered so – so – okay – then people would work and look for other avenues to teach and to disipline their kids and it might make a difference. *sigh*

People always talk about how much ‘badder’ kids have gotten since they stopped doing corporal punishment in schools – but I think about what else has changed since then. How about the disintergration of the community and the extended family? How about all the crap we are pumping into the air and the food and the water? How about the violence that is shown and glorified on every channel of the TV – sometimes in such subtle ways that you don’t even RELIZE there is violence occuring? How about the lack of attention most kids get from people who love them? How about the fact that kids don’t play outside nearly as much anymore? I mean – shit, so much has changed in how kids are raised from then to now – how can any honest person point to corporal punishment and say – that’s what the problem is?

*sigh* I’m really glad that I started thinking of this NOW – because it really is a mental shift. It’s a mindchange to think of spanking as abuse – and interestingly enough, I think of it more as emotional abuse than physical. It’s a real shift – even for me, who always thought of kids as little people – to realize that ya know what? I really SHOULD treat them the same way I want to be treated – and that if it’s inhumane to beat a lion to train them – it’s even more inhumane to beat a child.

It kinda scares me, and saddens me just how hard this is to process…and how I have to keep telling myself – I wouldn’t hit a friend who was doing something I didn’t like, I wouldn’t hit my husband for doing something I didn’t like, I wouldn’t hit my boss for doing something that I didn’t like, I wouldn’t hit my cat for doing something I didn’t like – why on the birght green Earth would I hit my child – who, besides the cat, understands the LEAST about what is expected of a little person?

It’s really amazing – out of everything that I want to do around childrearing – this is the most radical.

ETA: And can I tell you how intensely uncomfy and scared and wondering it makes me that every time I talk/think/ponder spanking, my ass starts to tingle? And no, it’s not even vaguely sexual or in a good way…. it’s just – odd. It feels like a physical memory, and that bothers me deeply – esp. considering how nonchalant I feel about having been spanked.  

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January 22, 2007

In my opinion, the problem is people who hit their children in rage. I think if you use a smack on the butt in a situation like, wrenching your hand away from mommy and running to the street, it’s appropriate. It really snaps the kid to attention, because they’re surprised. It’s not a way to hurt them, but a way to say “hey, this is important, pay attention to what I’m about to say”.

January 22, 2007

kind of like, if you have to slap someone who’s delirious, or something along those lines. But maybe I’m wrong.

January 22, 2007

I wouldn’t hit my husband to get him to be aware that I’m about to tell him something important, and I wouldn’t hit a tiger to get it’s attention, and I don’t think it’s medically suggested to hit a delirious person – I wouldn’t because if they aren’t in their right mind, they’d be right likely to slap the shit out of me back.

January 22, 2007

I’ve never been one to judge a parent for spanking – or for not spanking, either. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, and I don’t think it’s a good thing. I was spanked, and my attitude towards it is similar to yours – “take it or leave it”. I lean towards it being acceptable behavior, but not one I’m likely to employ myself, and your words are one of the more convincing arguments against it.<P> I’ve never seen my best friend hit his children. They know right from wrong, and apart from his 2.5 year old being obstinate to a fault, even she doesn’t need to be spanked. She understands. If she’s been bad and I’m disappointed with her, I think she knows it – and it’s worse than hitting her. She seems to remember those lessons. Now that I think about it… you’re right. It’s not really necessary. Holy cow… all that in under 1,200 characters. -R

January 22, 2007

Punishment is a tough one. We are struggling with it now. We don’t believe in spanking. We always amused at the logic of this example – a kid hits another kids and the parent goes “don’t hit, it’s wrong!” *smack!* It just doesn’t seem logical to us. Problem is we are trying to find what is right and I think time outs can be pretty dumb but may be used in certain situations. I think each kidwill have something they best respond to and we just need to figure it out. Of course, I still want to find a book just to get some ideas.

January 22, 2007

I think the problem with parenting today is that parents want to be friends, not teachers. Screw that; I was a teacher to my daughters. I raised my voice with them to express displeasure and I can count on one hand the number of times the three of them got spanked. It’s more important to teach them right from wrong than it is to “teach them a lesson”. I have three wonderful daughters who are respectful, have manners and are (mostly) obedient. I involved them early in chores and other responsibilities, and this all shows today-I have hig-spirited children who know where the boundaries are,and are usually self-policing. It’m more important to be a loving mentor than a freind to your children, IMHO.

I just have a couple of things to say- First and foremost- you are gonna be one awesome Mom! It warms my heart to know you are actually thinking of these things before you even have a little people- =-). My oldest son got 2 spankings in his life- and only because that’s how my Mama was raised, didn’t raise me- but said was appropriate. It never felt right- so, I never did it again- and my youngest never got spankings. Now, I will tell you- when my oldest was a teenager- he made me so angry one time I popped his mouth for cursing AT ME! Cried for hours afterwards & apologized later….so, you see where I’m coming from. My kids aren’t perfect- but they are good kids and they weren’t spanked.

And, I completely agree with original sinner up there-

Oh, and you must perfect ‘the mama look’. THAT is priceless when it comes to public places….LOL

Spanking is a rough one, particularly if (like me) you were spanked and you turned out all right (twitch. slaver). I popped a diapered behind a couple of times but it just never did feel right – the bottom line for me (HAH! HAH!) was that it didn’t jibe with teaching them that their bodies belonged to THEM. (Also, at times with one of my kids, I was afraid that if I ever started spanking I would never stop! :D)

January 23, 2007

When I was very young, I got my hand smacked away from the stove, and that hurt. But my mom explained afterward that burning my hand on the stove would have hurt worse. I never got my hand near a stove since that time, until a week or so ago, by accident. And it turned out she was right. And I was glad I didn’t have to learn that by my own mistake. I lived down the street from a three-year-old who was never spanked, and while they told him what he should and shouldn’t do, he was rarely, if ever, punished in any meaningful way. One day he was playing with matches, and accidentally burned their house down. Would it have happened had he been spanked? Maybe. I don’t know. People get more reasonable as they get older (ideally). Am I saying spanking is the only solution, or even the best? Not at all. And without the accompanied instruction and love the rest of the time, it is meaningless and even destructive. But I was spared many dangers growing up, that other kids my age weren’t so lucky to avoid, because even if I didn’t fully understand the ramifications of those actions yet, I at least knew I’d get in trouble at home. Which was enough at the tim

January 23, 2007

I waffle on this subject. I’ve seen it work both ways. If getting rid of corporal punishment in all scenarios meant that no child would ever be abused ever again (beyond ordinary spanking), I would be all for it. But I don’t think that would happen. I think if a parent finds a viable alternative that works for their kid, then by all means use it. Because it’s not the answer for everyone, bya long shot. And once a kid is old enough to be reasoned with (as well as given responsibility for their actions, via grounding or some other method), then it seems a pointless exercise that could lead to unnecessary trauma. In a school situation, I see no point in having corporal punishment. I went to a school that had that when I was in grade school, and I was sent to the principal’s office… more times than I can remember. Well over a dozen. And I would get what they called “swats”. It hurt worse than anything I’d ever experienced at home. But it had no effect. Why? Because they never bothered to get to the root of the problem with me. (Luckily, someone found out ten years later that it was ADD. Better late than never.) To me, the key ingredients are respect & communicat

January 23, 2007

(hmm. both my notes got cut off. ‘:P)

January 25, 2007

RYN: she’s one of those needy women who need a man at any cost 🙁

January 25, 2007

ryn: you ain’t kiddin’…

January 30, 2007

RYN: You can if you want to. But if you’re looking for something that you’re definitely going to want to paint over anyway, I’d suggest the highly embossed wallpapers meant for exactly that. Alternately, you could conceivably just use random paper all over the wall (I’ve seen it done with paper bags, then polyurethaned afterward – it looks like embossed leather) and paint it however you wish.

ryn~ Yeah, it’s free — just a diary we created. Look for Uninhibited. That’s what the diary name is. Request to be on Favs and I’ll get you in. Yay! I’m glad you’re joining in!

February 4, 2007

My opinion is that “gentle discipline” does work, but it’s more than just not hitting your child, it’s about really being connected to them overall. We use timeouts with Michael, and counting to three, and they both work. Why? Because I also recignize that there are times my son acts out simply because he needs more attention that I’m not giving to him. Times when he’s being the most naughty are when I’m paying attention to another child (such as my best friend’s daughter) or doing something that excludes him. I realize that while my son has a responsibility to act appropriately, he’s also just three and doesn’t understand how to deal with his emotions of feeling left out or jealous. It’s also my responsibility to take time out of my life to focus solely on him. That doesn’t mean that he still doesn’t act out in public on occasion, and I feel like a total tool employing time outs or counting to three around strangers, but overall he’s a very well-behaved and respectful child. It’s more than just how you discipline the bad behaviour, it’s how you make the child feel a part of the family and a strong sense of his belonging that gives him self esteem and self respect.

February 4, 2007

Oh, and just for perspective – I didn’t get spanked often, my older brother usually was the disobedient one and so received the brunt of the abuse – but when we did, it was always an extremely painful and humiliating experience. We were always spanked with a belt, always bare-assed, and always in front of the other two children. I can barely describe the feeling of showing my bare ass in front of my two brothers, and the shame I felt at watching them when they were disciplined. We were often slapped in the face or made to eat soap for talking back. What did it teach me? Well, when I was a teenager it taught me to hate my mother and to rebel as much as possible. As a young woman it taught me to be angry and confrontational, and that being aggressive was acceptable in getting my way. Then I got older and realized that wasn’t how I wanted to live my life. As a mother it taught me not to visit that same cycle of abuse on my own children. So in my opinion, hitting your kids is never okay. Never. I don’t coddle my son by any stretch of the imagination, and I am most certainly NOT a weak parent. I am my child’s friend, but I am also his mother. He will never forget

February 4, 2007

He will never forget that even though I love him deeply, that I am the boss and what I say goes. This is my opinion breeds a mutual sense of respect, one for the other. I respect his bodily integrity, ability to learn from mistakes, and the alignment of his moral compass, and he respects my ability to teach him these things and guide him until he’s old enough to do so on his own. xo

February 4, 2007

For Krud: I was spanked and I was a horrible pyromaniac. I burned everything, poured rubbing alcohol into ashtrays and lit them on fire, experimented to see how quickly a roll of toilet paper (and subsequently the bath towel hanging above it) would burn, you name it. Looking back I see it as an expression of my anger and inner turmoil, so take that as you will.