CA Xian and whether the resurrection matters.

Do not feel compelled to click on my ad above. – BUM

First of all, the objection has been raised that "it’s not a sacrifice if you take it back", indicating that the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross was "taken back" by Christ resurrecting from the dead. This is a baseless claim. First of all, the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross wasn’t just His death.

Ok.

Remember that Jesus was beaten and tortured before He took that long walk to Golgotha (Aramaic for "Hill of the Skull"). He was flogged with whips that had pieces of bone on the edge. Jesus was so beaten and marred that He wasn’t even recognizable as He walked and was nailed to the Cross. Not to mention the nails that went through His wrists and ankles, and the crown twisted from throns that was forced upon His head, and the humiliation He had to suffer as He walked through town, carrying the crossbeam from His own cross. His death was not the only thing He suffered that day. And also don’t forget that God was fully human and fully divine, so the human part of Jesus was sacrificed on that cross, but the Divine factor was what allowed Jesus to return from the dead.

All right, so it was the pain as well as the death that was sacrificed. Let’s talk about the suffering and the death parts separately.

Pain first: What if they only made Jesus stub his toe before they killed him. Would that not have been enough pain? Or is there a specific amount of pain before the death that made it a "true sacrifice"?

Death second: And how on earth is Jesus dying a sacrifice? I’m not talking the pain part, but the act of dying. Leaving earthly existence for an eternity in paradise. That REALLY is not a sacrifice. So the only sacrifice he made is the pain part.

The Bible tells us that we’re all deserving of death for our sins, not just physical death but spiritual death. Jesus’ death on that cross, in which He took the sins of all humanity on Him (in fact, for that one brief moment, God Himself had to turn His head away, being so holy that He can’t even look upon sin). In the Old Testament days, a spotless lamb had to be sacrificed for everyone to atone for their sins. Jesus became that spotless lamb and was crucified on the cross for our sins. He became our "passover lamb", with which we can now be cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness.

So you’re allowed to transfer sins, right? And once sins have been transferred, the sins are now ON whatever they’ve been transferred to, and no longer on those that initially had them.

So, why couldn’t I take people’s sins? I’m not asking for the sins to be atoned for, I’m not saying that I’d be sacrificed. But since I’m already hell-bound, might as well take everyone else’s sins with me. The sins have been transferred, and are no longer on everyone else.

But why the resurrection? Don’t forget that death also is not permanent for us. The Bible teaches that when Jesus returns, everyone will be resurrected, the redeemed to Heaven and the unredeemed to eternal torment in Hell. (see Acts 24:15, and Revelation 20).

Well hell, why not just leave the ones who would go to hell asleep? Just resurrect the ones that’d go to heaven?

So the resurrection of Christ was not only proving that He was and is God, but is also a foreshadowing of what is to come for us.

Being able to convince people that you died and came back to life does not prove that one is God.
Even actually dying and coming back to life does not prove that one is God. Not even close, you only need the skillset of a local deity for that one.

Atheist Under Ur Bed

January 7, 2006

“Well hell, why not just leave the ones who would go to hell asleep? Just resurrect the ones that’d go to heaven?” I think that’s what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. They seem to have some good Bible verses to back them up, too.

FYI: I’m currently reading Bart Ehrman’s Lost Christianities. It’s reminding me of just how wildly diverse and mutually exclusive beliefs about Jesus were in the first few centuries after his alleged life & death. Why the people you debate think what they believe about him is true (and what others believe is false) is beyond me.

NO variety of theist or Christian can provide any good logic or evidence in support of their particular beliefs. Consequently, they all end up seeming silly to the extent they dare believe anything at all of a supernatural nature. Why can’t they understand this?

soulstice

January 8, 2006

no, BUM, you can’t be a sacrificial lamb (esp if you’re already headed for hell). Theologically, God won’t kill the pure good innocent(? “his” rules, not mine-I figure he can do anything he wants). The animal sacrifice was a temporary (yearly?)fix. Jesus was the only pure good innocent person but voluntered to be our ultimate sacrifice for all. But thanks for the offer! u get “heaven pts” 4 that!

I have Ehrman’s Lost Christianities lectures on tape. A wonderful part of Christian history lost to most believers. I’m sorry some of those don’t make a comeback.

“no, BUM, you can’t be a sacrificial lamb” See, I’m not looking to be a sacrificial lamb. Sins that go to a sacrificial lamb (or Jesus) get atoned for, and forgiven because the sacrifice is pure. Sure, I’m not pure, but so what? So the sins that are transferred to me aren’t forgiven. That’s ok, I’m headed to hell anyway.

You have to admit, if sins and guilt can be transferred, then transferring sin and everything to me should be a completely viable option. And if they’re transferred, they’re no longer “debts” that that person owes.

“NO variety of theist or Christian can provide any good logic or evidence in support of their particular beliefs” I call it faith…. as the cliche goes… just because you cant see or touch it doesnt mean it isnt there.

An Atheist

“..just because you cant see or touch it doesnt mean it isnt there.” True, but it begs the question of how you could know it is there and what would justify believing in it.

RYN: I think they are both idiots and think Pat should be off the air for alot of things, not just his idiotic comments about Sharon. It’s people like him that give this religion a bad name. Fred Phelps is probably the only Christian that’s a bigger moron then Pat.

California Christian

January 9, 2006

First, I’ll reply to your notes, and then I’ll reply to your entry. About the book of Revelation, where a third of all stars fall to earth. This is not a scientific absurdity. Consider this: we read in Joshua chapter 10, we read about Joshua’s “long day”, in which God made the sun “stand still”. Now, of course the Earth revolves around the sun, so how could the sun “stand still?”

Answer: It really didn’t. Rather, the sun appeared to stand still in the sky. This is what Astronomers would deem “apparent motion”. In reality, it’s the Earth that remained still, not the sun. Joshua was writing from his perspective of the sun in the sky, not from what scientifically actually happened. This is how John in the book of Revelation wrote about the stars falling from the sky.

In reality, the stars fell from their fixed position in space toward Earth, but to John, it would appear that they fell right from the sky.

Now as to this entry: You could not have atoned for the human race by dying on the cross. No one on Earth could have. When the Israelites atoned for their sin in the Old Testmaent, they had to use a lamb “spotless, and free of blemish”. So it is with Jesus dying for our sins. Jesus lived the only sinless life, so He was the only one qualified to die for the sins of the world.

Also, the soul sleeping or being eradicated is not a Biblical doctrine. The Bible teaches that the redeemed will live in Heaven (because they accept the sacrific of Jesus Christ, and realized that they were sinners in need of a Savior), and the unredeemed to Hell. A common misconception is that people go to Hell because they don’t believe in Jesus. That’s not true.

People go to Hell because they’re sinners. That’s why we need Jesus’ sacrifice. Now instead of sacrificing a lamb every year, we can now because forgiven, once for all our sins, and live a holy life before a holy God.

Also, people didn’t believe God would come back from the dead until after He did, and then His disciples were convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt. But don’t forget that Jesus prophecied His own resurrection. That proves that He was God, because He fulfilled prophecy. There is no way He could predict His own resurrection unless He was God.

The people who were resurrected in the Bible (Lazaurs, etc.) surely didn’t know they would be coming back from the dead.

Pirate the Kitty

January 10, 2006

“People go to Hell because they’re sinners.” I thought the premise of Christian faith is that we’re all sinners? So aren’t we all going to hell then? And if we can have our sins wiped away, doesn’t that sort of defeat the point? “Oops I’m sorry I killed that guy, I feel awful, can I get a do-over?” So effing tarded.