Am I smarter than haredawg?
“why are you so passionate in your attempts to constantly prove others wrong? just wondering. – taylor.”
Because I have a strong commitment to truth, fairness, and accuracy. [A Thinking BUM]
Side note- I actually take issue with the question a little bit. It’s not that I enjoy proving others wrong. I only “attempt to prove wrong” those that I genuinely believe are mistaken – just as my answer would imply.
The real question aside from all your defensive posturing, is why do you feel it necessary to prove anyone wrong in the first place.
But, yeah, it seems a pretty straightforward implication that you seem to feel you’ve a better handle on truth and such then who you argue with.
My opinion should be pretty obvious, I don’t believe you have a handle on such matters to the degree that you believe it. Though I am no where near arrogant enough to suggest I am wise enough to school you or anyone else on the finer and more elegant points of truth, fairness or honesty. [haredawg]
Why prove people wrong? I agree with Darwin as he says, "To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact.”
One major benefit that we can get from the laws of logic is that an argument can be shown to be invalid without knowing what *the truth* of the matter really is.
For example; If I punch the wall, then my hand will hurt. My hand hurts, therefore, I punched the wall.
That’s an invalid argument because there are many reasons my hand could hurt.
This approach (showing arguments are invalid, not necessarily by affirming the consequence) has been one of my major methods of attack from the beginning.
A person who concludes that God exists because of the feelings they get when they pray, for example – can be shown by that same logic to conclude something absurd. This is the argument from absurdity – the one you seem to have the most problems with.
Once it has been shown to be an invalid argument, that’s it, the argument does not work. The conclusion MAY still be true – but one can no longer base the REASON for believing it on that invalid argument.
Do I need to claim to know anything about the conclusion?
Whether God really exists or not? No!
I don’t care that a thinking bum thinks he’s smart, I don’t think he’s stupid. It does bother me that he thinks he’s smarter than everyone he talks to on OD.
Blah blah “But you say you have a commitment to truth…that must mean that you think you know THE TRUTH…which means that you think you’re smarter than everyone who disagrees with you.” (my words, not haredawg’s)
Again, NO. Showing that an argument is invalid shows exactly what I say it shows – we now know the truth about the validity of the argument.
I know it must drive haredawg nuts that I conclude exactly what I say, and not what he wants me to be concluding so that he can be upset with me, but that’s tough.
ryn: Gracious no!
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IÂ’m always amazed at your examples. Punching a wall feels bad, praying feels good, yet you rail against others for praying whilst you punch walls. It doesnÂ’t matter how you hurt your hand, you are a wall puncher. It also doesnÂ’t matter how someone feels good if they are a prayer.
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Interesting time for the side note by the way. The idea of enjoyment doesnÂ’t seem inherent in the note at all. I was half expecting a side note that said you were passionate about debate or something. Passionate, whether enjoyment follows or not, about proving people wrong, is indicative of a very low self esteem
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What drives Haredawg nuts is your motivations not your conclusions. I believe you misrepresent yourself. Your conclusion that the concept of divinity, one that brings a great many people comfort, is absurd is a five minute skit youÂ’ve turned into a mini series.
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Why you gotta get all upset all the time? — A Thinking BUM I’m not upset. Just typing is all.
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“Passionate, whether enjoyment follows or not, about proving people wrong, is” is not what I’m passionate about. You have no excuse for getting this wrong – it is spelled out clearly in my entry.
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“I believe you misrepresent yourself.” And you actively mis-read what I write.
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Your conclusion that the concept of divinity, one that brings a great many people comfort, is absurd is a five minute skit youÂ’ve turned into a mini series. -haredawg If that’s your problem, then state it. Say that you don’t have a commitment to truth; but rather you are a pragmatist, and that which gives comfort is what should be promoted, regardless of the truth.
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It’s a worthwhile argument to have.
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It is so sad that you don’t know what the truth is.
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If that’s your problem, then state it. Say that you don’t have a commitment to truth; but rather you are a pragmatist, and that which gives comfort is what should be promoted, regardless of the truth. — Bum That’s rather black and white doncha think? You’re an absolutist ey? There’s one truth and you’re committed to whatever it might be?
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I never said I was committed to the truth, but I will say I could both be committed to the truth and a pragmatist. Is there something untrue about people being given comfort by what they believe? Are pragmatism and your truth with the capital T at odds? Mutually exclusive?
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“I never said I was committed to the truth, but I will say I could both be committed to the truth and a pragmatist. Is there something untrue about people being given comfort by what they believe?” If you’re a mixture of both, how do you decide what to tell peasants under some czar or ruler who believe in divine right to rule? what if the belief makes them happy yet subjects them to tyranny?
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“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.” – GB Shaw
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I find this whole thing amusing. I’m glad there are people like you and haredawg to argue over such things as syntax…it makes my life more full 🙂
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The big difference between prayer and tryanny involves victims. It’s another poor analogy. Tell you what, if you tell the next czar that comes to your diary that he has not been granted devine sovereignty I’ll back you a hundred percent. Same thing with a pharoh or hell a senator.
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I’m not a mixture of both either. Being committed to the truth is a bit like being in a monagamous relationship with an adulterer. The truth will mess around on you. I not really a pragmatist either, though I wouldn’t be unflattered by the term. If it’s useful to you to give me name so you can pidgeon hole me or discover the truth through me, call me a raconteur.
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But is it even true that believers are happier? Not that I can see. Catholics full of guilt… Baptist kids full of the fear of hell-fire… Evangelicals full of hate for gays and liberals… Muslim women crushed by Islam… Indians crushed by the Hindu-sanctioned caste system… Anyone who thinks believers are happier than others needs to prove it, not just assert it.
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*pops some corn*
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*sigh* this is amusing.
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to anonymous noter; Who said happier? There have been a number of noters here though that have claimed to be happy as a result of their religion , you dig through the entries, it’s not worth it to me. I would like to point out that you’ve just made a broad statement based on folks religious affliation. Ain’t that called bigotry? I can’t begin to prove such a generality, don’t even believe it.
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“The big difference between prayer and tryanny involves victims. It’s another poor analogy.” It’s not an analogy. For some people, religious beliefs bring comfort. For others, it is a motivator to accept (or at least not fight) their place in a caste system – or to be subjected to tyrants.
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Haredawg, what do you do if you have arguments that show both of these groups conclude what they do for invalid reasons? Do you share the mistake only with those that you deem to be held down (in a caste system for example)? (That’s arrogant). Do you tell both? (then you’d be like me). Do you tell neither? (that’s just mean).
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You take a recent class in russian history or something? First itÂ’s Czars and then paraphrasing Marx on religion being the opiate of the masses. Be honest for a moment now and quit speechifying; in all your time on OD have you run into a person oppressed by a systematic religious tyranny enforcing a caste system?
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“Anyone who thinks believers are happier than others needs to prove it, not just assert it.” To prove such a thing would have to be through a person’s testimony. Their own experience, something to which people like Bum tend to analyze and twist anyway. Conclusion being, some people could sit down face to face with God and they still would refuse to believe.
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“Conclusion being, some people could sit down face to face with God and they still would refuse to believe.” Weird conclusion in context… Why is belief w/o reason something for which to be rewarded/encouraged? Let’s say I do sit down w/ God, and I grant that he exists, so what? How does that affect my life in any meaningful way?
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Why is belief w/o reason something for which to be rewarded/encouraged? ~I would say it’s called faith. Let’s say I do sit down w/ God, and I grant that he exists, so what? How does that affect my life in any meaningful way? -A Thinking BUM ~If God exists, that means the Bible is true(assuming we’re talking about the Bibical God). Don’t make things so complicated Bum…
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Maybe that’s why you see things the way you do. Everything seems to have to be entirely complex for it to make reason to you. Sometimes having faith like a child brings out the most in life, and it’s sad to see you seem to have forgotten that.
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“Why is belief w/o reason something for which to be rewarded/encouraged? ~I would say it’s called faith.” I would call it faith as well – WHY IS FAITH SOMETHING TO BE ENCOURAGED or REWARDED?
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*has some of Aardvarks The Word’s popcorn* Yummy. *returns to watch the “debate” (rather one-sided, but still entertaining anyway) *cheers* Go Bum!
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“Sometimes having faith like a child brings out the most in life” And sometimes having faith like a child leads to people blindly following a Hitler, or flying planes into buildings, or becoming suicide bombers, or drinking poisoned Kool Aid, or being ripped off by con artists, or going to a faith healer when what they need is modern medicine, or praying when they need to DO something….
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Most of that I would say is insanity. You can have faith like a child and still have your mind, silly. Like I said, don’t twist everything simple thing just to create a stupid point.
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WHY IS FAITH SOMETHING TO BE ENCOURAGED or REWARDED? -A Thinking BUM Well, Bum. You seem to know quite a lot, but where does it get you? All this information, this “logic” that you know, what does it do for you? Make you feel better? You feel that you have some intellectual step higher than other people who put their faith in a being higher than themselves?
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Be careful with what you know and how you use it.
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“You seem to know quite a lot, but where does it get you?” I’m just asking questions at this point, I haven’t mentioned anything that I know. If there are at least 2 possible things to have faith (believing something w/o reason, as you defined it) in, and they’re contradictory (so you can’t just have faith in both of them) – how would a person choose between them?
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“how would a person choose between them?” And what if people supporting each of the two faiths said that “terrible things” would happen to you if you didn’t believe in their faith?
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