Why the Bible is unimpressive.
A discussion that I’ve been having over at the Bloopdiary place that I’m posting here as well.
Hannah.Faith’s writings are in red. The bolded red text is my words that she has responded to, which I have responded to in regular text. It shouldn’t be nearly as confusing as I’ve made it seem. [apparently, the font color shows up in IE, but not mozilla – if you can’t see the color you and you want to – switch to IE for my entry]
I must, of course, answer your statements with Scripture, as it’s the power of my Salvation.
Im not trying to be difficult, but that doesnt follow.
I would have prefered an all-powerful and all-good and all-knowing God to have relayed his thoughts to all humankind in 1. a timely manner. 2. a clear manner. 3. in a complete manner…and probably a bunch more. [BUMs text]
God addressed all three of these things in the Bible.
1) Romans 5:6 – While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly
Im not talking about the right time for events to occur which is a second and powerful argument in itself.
When I say, an all-powerful, all-good and all-knowing God to have relayed his thoughts to all humankind in a timely manner I mean that there were millions of people who lived and died and never realized that there was a hell that they could go to. Or that God wanted them to keep the Sabbath day holy. Apparently, God had a lot of very specific thoughts that are important for everyone to know (why else is there a Bible?). Apparently, God didnt use any of his power to get his message to everyone. God could have made it so that every human had consistent and full knowledge of the Bible from the time of conception, where we wouldnt even need to write down the Bible, everyone could internally reflect and everyone would know exactly what God meant. Instead, apparently, he chose to convey his message via ancient Hebrew in a book that most people ever alive couldnt read.
2) 1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Ive always found this to be a silly argument.
I could write a pamphlet about how the world is flat, and how people who believed this truth of the pamphlet would be considered foolish to everyone except those that believed the pamphlet. The fact that Im write when I write, people who believe this would be considered foolish doesnt mean that anything else Ive written is true or even not-foolish. In fact, the author of Corinthians probably was writing something hed observed; that people regard his teaching as foolishness except those that believe him.
3) Hebrews 4:12 – For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (sounds pretty complete to me! )
That verse just says that the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Im not sure if this is supposed to address the 1. timely, 2. clear or 3. complete criticism –
The Bible is lacking timely revelation (over 50 generations of people lived and died between when GOD came to earth and ANYONE in North America heard about it
American Indians didn’t know what money was until Columbus came over in 1492, but yet we worship that.
Lets say we worship money who claims that money is all-powerful, or has intents at all? What does this have to do with anything?
By the time the 50 generations had lapsed, God’s Word had been finished in it’s entirety (what He sat aside for humans, anyway. Genesis-Revelation) so why do we need to know who else begat who else? </o
:p>
You have clearly misunderstood me. I have been told that a VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM GOD is that I have sinned, and that I need to believe that a guy died and then rose from the dead in order to get into heaven.
That message, which is VERY IMPORTANT for all humankind, apparently wasnt revealed to entire continents until many generations after everything about the message was known. Why the lag-time? Why didnt God do any of the infinite number things that would have delivered that VERY IMPORTANT message in a TIMELY manner?
This has nothing to do with begetting anything.
If we had a book that contained everything from *insert year here*B.C.E. until man settled in North America, it would be a seriously long book. God already had what He wanted to say written down.
Yes. Everything was written why wasnt it distributed, etc., faster? You cant say, because people were slow getting here because God directly intervened to write the book. Why didnt he intervene to write the book at the same time in every place on earth especially if it were the same book in each place?
It is far from clear – as evidenced by the multitudes of people who genuinely believe that the Bible says radically different things from each other.
Matthew 24:11 – And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
The Bible doesn’t do the deceiving, cracked out people do the deceiving. Different religions start because of 1) Dissention, 2) Personal interpretation. People build on what they THINK the Word of God says. Study’s have shown that human brains think differently. If you and I looked at an abstract painting, we’d more than likely come up with two different meanings behind that painting.
Right, an abstract painting is difficult to discern the meaning but a Do Not Touch Wet Paint sign is very clear. Why isnt the Bible that clear? Why arent we born with an innate knowledge of Gods will?
2 Peter 1:20 – Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
If you read the Word of God with a knowledge that the pages you are reading are the very Words of God, then you won’t have any PRIVATE interpretation. God will reveal the exact same things to you as He does to me. It just may not be at the same time. He reveals things to us when we need them. Not just randomly.
I doubt you could back these claims up in any meaningful manner.
And is far from complete – I would have thought that God would have mentioned something about slavery being wrong…or that democracy was a good idea…or something about human rights…or religious tolerance… But you’ll find none of that in the Bible.
1) Slavery – People read one verse & think they’ve found something that condones slavery. Such as Colossians 3:22 – Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;
But, you have to read before that verse & after it… 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men.
Im not even worrying about condoning slavery which it does. Im asking why it doesnt ever condemn slavery.
If you think it does, please let me know what verse youre looking at.
If it does not condemn slavery AND you think that slavery is wrong then you have to admit that the Bible is not Complete in its moral teaching.
2) Democracy – Exodus 18:22 – And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
<P class=MsoNormal style=”MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt”>Exodus 18:26 – And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves. [Hannah.Faith]
So, in disputes, people should try to settle this themselves, unless its difficult, in which case you go to the authority who will decide?
What on earth does this have to do with democracy?
*clapping* As usual. 🙂
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I checked out the underlying Html. You’re using the <SPAN sytle=”Color:red”> tag for the coloring instead of the standard <font color=”red”>, so that might have something to do with it.
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“That message, which is VERY IMPORTANT for all humankind, apparently wasnt revealed to entire continents until many generations after..” Very simple, really. The bible writers considered the Near East as the entire world. We could expect them to make such a mistake, but an all-knowing God? Rubbish.
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As Christians we should be a sales representative, not a manager. Whoever, or wherever does it say that those before Christ all went to hell? God is a gracious, just and loving God. He will judge the hearts of those before Christ and decide who goes to heaven and who doesn’t – He knows the hearts of his people, our eyes aren’t as keen.
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I think, rather I know, that if you would go to someone who’s never heard of God or Christ and you ask them if they’ve ever felt guilt, that would answer your question of God revealing his law before the Ten Commandments – they are written on our hearts when it is formed in our mother’s womb.
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I deleted IE off of my computer . . . lol! — Bonnie
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“He will judge the hearts of those before Christ and decide who goes to heaven and who doesn’t” Fine – Where does it say this? The OT has no concept of a heaven or a hell. Why not? Did they not exist yet? If the OT is inspired by the same God, why is there no mention of either?
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On the contrary, there are several references to heaven and hell in the old testament. The old testament is basically prophecies of what comes to pass in the new testament. Point being, we all (believers and non-believers alike) should read and study correctly what we read if we tend on making such bold statements…this goes for me mostly.
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“On the contrary, there are several references to heaven and hell in the old testament.” This is where you list the references so that we’ll believe you.
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You know, I’m thinking about picking up my old Bible from my mom’s place just so that I can catch up on all this. My study of the Bible is a little bit rusty. Or maybe I should buy a new one? If I’m going to do that, can someone tell me which copy of the Bible is the REAL one…I mean…a good Christian should have an accurate Bible…maybe if it speaks enough truths, I’ll convert! 🙂 Rave
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Why should you believe what I say..I could list references for you very easily, but if you really wanted to know for yourself..not take someone’s word for it, go find out for yourself, see it with your own eyes and make your decision…I’m not saying I would lie to you, but if you go look for yourself, the only thing you would have to disagree or debate with would be the Bible itself..
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I recommend the New International or American Standard versions
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“The old testament is basically prophecies of what comes to pass in the new testament.” No, the OT is a *lot* more than just a prophetic work, and none of that prophetic work has much of anything to do with the NT. How much of it have you read?
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“Why should you believe what I say..I could list references for you very easily.” You know, there’s an old saying that goes “put out or shut up.” If it’s that easy, then list them. I’ve studied the OT and I can assure you that they did not have a concept of a heaven or a hell. Instread, they refer to a place called “Sheol” where souls go after they die. It’s neither heaven-like or hell-like.
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Hey – the red works in Mozilla. Whoohooo! 🙂
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you dont believe the bible and all you do is mock it, what good would any scripture do you if you don’t believe it?
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“you dont believe the bible and all you do is mock it, what good would any scripture do you if you don’t believe it? [Vester]” Your beliefs are self-contradictory. It would do YOU good to figure out why you believe certain things. Your belief about who goes to hell has no Biblical basis – it’s your own wishful thinking. If you think I’m wrong, cite a verse – that’s all you’d need.
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you try so hard to nail people on their beliefs, but in reality it’s you who doesn’t have a firm stand in the ground, it’s you who doesn’t have any true set beliefs, but i am convinced that if you ever were to become a Christian you’d be a good one
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ah yeah, on a second note, since when did you know what I believed? how are my beliefs contradictory? give me something to back that one up
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“…what good would any scripture do you if you don’t believe it?” Gee, I don’t know – it might prove the annonymous noters point? Are you and the annonymous noter the same?
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The plain answer to your first set of questions is that there was no means to communicate such a grand plan. It wasn’t until the Romans, with their excellent roads and the Pax Romana, that is was possible or likely for a message to have any chance of being carried with success. That is exactly when the message was carried. Until that time, it was as spread as something from Palestine could be.
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“Why isnt the Bible that clear? Why arent we born with an innate knowledge of Gods will?” First, the Bible IS that clear. It’s very clear about must be done. You have to assume that it’s clear before you can argue against what it says, unless you’re going to admit you don’t know. Second, we are born with it, which is why atheists interest me so much. Morality is just exactly that, innate.
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As to your larger question of why it didn’t come to North America sooner, there isn’t really an answer we can posit that is anything other than speculation. We don’t know. As I’ve noted before, that’s not a problem, because after the proofs for a God, which are substantial and persuasive, it is not a logical blunder to posit that God is good and powerful first, and make it fit after that.
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If the Bible is so WRONG..and not true..why set out trying to prove it false? Why care, if it’s not true? I can understand people who believe what it says, because sharing that faith is apart of what they are called to do by the Word. But the way athiest most of all (on this diary) have tried to rip it apart, you would almost think they are threatened by it..
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One reference, Isaiah 66:1 “This is what the Lord says: Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool…” Heaven and hell are not really specifically mentioned in the OT, but there are hints of them throughout..and lol, not much prophecy? Why don’t you read Isaiah or Daniel, and then get back to me
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Hey Bum!what kind of music do you listen to? just a random question *hee*
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Annon, The Hebrew word translated as “Heaven” in Isaiah 66:1 is shamayim, which means “the sky.” Thus, the passage really means “The sky is my throne and the Earth is my footstool.” A clear distinction is being made here between Earth and Sky. Now – I’m talking about the Christian idea of Heaven as a place where “saved” souls go to after they die. That’s not what Isaiah means here.
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So, I’ll repeat: The Christian idea of Heaven and Hell cannot be found anywhere in the OT. It’s a later Christian invention. You said earlier that the OT is basically prophecies of the NT. The fact is, only about 1/3 of the OT consists of prophecies and none of these prophecies refer specifically to the NT.
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StealthPudge – “The plain answer to your first set of questions is that there was no means to communicate such a grand plan.” You can’t possibly tell me that an all-powerful deity had no means to communicate such a grand plan.
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“ah yeah, on a second note, since when did you know what I believed? how are my beliefs contradictory? give me something to back that one up [Vester]” 1. You believe in the Bible. 2. You said, “also people before Christ didn’t go to hell” 3. This knowledge of what God does is not from the Bible. Therefore, your beliefs are contradictory.
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StealthPudge – “The plain answer to your first set of questions is that there was no means to communicate such a grand plan.” You can’t possibly tell me that an all-powerful deity had no means to communicate such a grand plan. [An Atheist] I completely agree – he wouldn’t even have to use anything “supernatural” a TV works perfectly naturally and can reach everyone instantly!
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you dont make sense even in that example my beliefs do not contradict eachother, dont try to twist what i said and stop wasting your time
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OT prophesies are fulfilled in the NT. Not even radios were around back then, word of mouth, and conviction in the heart was how God communicated. A good book to read about the Bible is: “A General Introduction to the Bible” by David Ewert.
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Ambassador4Christ – “OT prophesies are fulfilled in the NT.” Can you give even one example that’s not a Christian misintepretation or misappropriation of Jewish texts? “word of mouth, and conviction in the heart was how God communicated.” That’s admittingly not a very reliable mode of communication. Certainly an all-powerful God could do better than that?
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He could also pull our strings and make us love him, but that wouldn’t be very genuine. Isaiah 9:2-7/Luke 2:11; Psalm 34:20/John 19:36; Micah 5:2/Matthew 2:1
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An Atheist- Then I put it to you. If you had the plan for the salvation of mankind, but you had to explain it to Bronze Age people…what would you do? What methods would you use? I’m very interested to hear. ATB- I put the same challenge to you. Your example of the TV proves my point exactly. We’re talking first century, NOT TODAY. How would you deliver that message to them? TV?
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It’s really quite clever to posit 20th century modes in as a useful means of communication in the 1st century. Clearly, such technology did not exist, and so the question boils down to: “Why did God just not save everyone and get it over with?” I submit that a revelation like that requires no faith at all and reduces human beings to robots. The way God used means that people are free to choose.
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And at any rate, none of that matters. The moment you say, “Why didn’t God [blank]?” you’re assuming there is such a being, that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. It’s important to choose the tack you’ll take. If you’re going to argue against God, there are better ways to formulate that argument. Granting that there is a God and then picking apart God’s methods is working at cross-purposes.
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“Then I put it to you. If you had the plan for the salvation of mankind, but you had to explain it to Bronze Age people…what would you do? What methods would you use? I’m very interested to hear.” If I was an omnipotent deity I would have any means imaginable available to me. Then again, I probably wouldn’t have created creatures in need of salvation in the first place.
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Ambassador4Christ – Thanks for taking the time to present these references. Obviously, it’s not feasible to discuss them here in ATB’s notes. When I get a chance I’ll examine them in my diary. At least one I know for sure that I’ve already discussed, but I don’t expect you to know this.
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Despite all that you’ve written being true on a logical basis, you must admit there is still much to admire about christianity, or any religion for that matter. Yeah, when you get down to the details, the things that the church preaches are nonsensical, but the principles that they live by, in theory at least, are very admirable. Not all sects of Christianity forget the ‘in theory’
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and the ‘figurative’ and the ‘sometimes you have to put things in context’ part.
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