Jesus, the Local Deity, Elaborated…
In the previous entry I had written:
Say that Jesus existed, that the supernatural exists, that his life was pretty much as is recorded in the Gospels, that he died and rose again. Say even that we can somehow know that he wasn’t demonic.
What does that get you? Even if I grant a person all of that, all that shows is evidence of a small local deity that existed 2,000 years ago. Even if this deity claimed to be really big and powerful, there’s no reason to believe that he is any more powerful than he demonstrated.
“Looking at the variety of religious experiences attributed to followers of Jesus, the similarities of those that pass certain defeaters (i.e. the people claiming the experience weren’t drunk, etc.) the ethnic variety of the people who claim the experiences, the huge span of time in which the experiences transpired…Jesus is more than a local deity, just by virtue of the common experiences.
And of course, in allowing all that, you remove the three or four best arguments against Christianity, and are left with the idea that Jesus was somehow a/the God. If you make that jump, you’ve kicked out the legs the atheist and agnostic stands on. I’m for granting the things you do here, and I understand that you’re doing it for the sake of argument, but it’s not as compelling as other arguments” [StealthPudge18]
No, I think you’re still in a world of trouble. Granting what I’ve said above:
Why should I believe that I have a soul and that it somehow exists after I die? Why should I believe that Jesus (the deity) has any sort of power or influence over that even if it could be shown that I had a soul? Why should I care about this God? What relevence to my life could he possibly have?
“Jesus is transforming lives today as well throughout this world. Of course he could transform yours but you are unwillng and unbelieving thus you will never see the power of the Lord Jesus. I wish you would.” [BrotherJim]
Same questions to you, let’s say that religious experience is good evidence for the object of that experience – that people “finding Jesus” shows us that he’s still around. Who cares? What the hell does that have to do with me?
“Yeah, I think Jim has a point. It’s whether or not the effects because of Jesus continue in other places. Also, given the effect Jesus has at the moment in Isreal and the surrounding places, if he was a local diety only, then he was a very time-specific one.” [‘topher]
Why couldn’t he be a very time-specific deity?
“Looking at the variety of religious experiences attributed to followers of Mohammed, the similarities of those that pass certain defeaters (i.e. the people claiming the experience weren’t drunk, etc.) the ethnic variety of the people who claim the experiences, the huge span of time in which the experiences transpired…Jesus is more than a local deity, just by virtue of the common experiences
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I copied what StealthPudge18] said and replaced Mohammed to prove a point. The same can be said about him.
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Sorry this really doesn’t have anything to do with the entry. But, I just couldn’t help but notice the ads in the banner at the top of your diary: Passion of Christ – Free… Free Jesus Christ Video… Crucified Under Pontius Pilate… God Loves You… Christian ads in an atheist’s diary. Kind of ironic in a way…
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I’m sorry but your note didn’t make sense so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t leave your Jesus-debate crap on my diary anymore Thanks
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if anyone has any real questions about Jesus, just email me at MRRY79@hotmail.com
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So…er…jesus COULD show me the *truth*, but he … won’t? can’t? what? … because I … am unwilling and … unbelieving? *confused*.
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You have a point; Even if it’s all true what the hell do you care? You think there’s anyone who reads, skims, or drunkenedly stumbles across this diary who doubts that this diary is dedicated to an atheist viewpoint? That fact that you can grant the truth of the gospels and still not give a shit really has nothing to do with nothing.
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Also, healing lepers, raising the dead, walking on water, curing the blind — I don’t know dude, that’s some pretty impressive stuff. Until you can do it, I think it’s cool enough to merit mention 2000 years later. I still think you are a fan of the straw god argument. There is no god and he ain’t all that. I didn’t take your candy and it tasted bad anyhow.
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There are no miracles in the Islamic tradition, Champayne, so for one, the religious experience argument is stronger for Christianity. In addition, Islam, even if I grant the late dates for Christianity, is still more than 300 years older, and the texts of the OT are even older than that. There are other reasons to suggest that Christianity is a more compelling choice than Islam evidentially.
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Now, BUM, about the soul. If you deny the soul, you are the one who must prove it, since the majority of human experience, including Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Descartes, Sartre, and a host of others all seem to argue for the soul. Since there is no empirical evidence for the soul you will accept, it comes down to the burden of proof. It seems to me that more people would agree there
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is a soul than there is not. That being the case, either all people who believe in a soul are idiots, or you’re incorrect in your perceptions. I could probably come up with many evidences for the soul, not least of which is the concept of self-identity which seems to imply at least a mind separate from the physical brain. If you concede the mind, Aristotle takes you the rest of the way to the soul
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As for the proofs, I’m with haredawg…if the Biblical accounts are trustworthy, (I know you doubt that but I do not and I’ve yet to see you quote any textual critics or interact with the evangelical position as it exists in the scholarly literature) then Jesus is certainly compelling as a figure who has power over human souls. Your gospels-as-conspiracy theory doesn’t stand up to the critics.
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As an atheist, would you be more or less willing to believe that Christ was the son of the creator of the universe if you could have some proof that he did indeed walk on water, feed the 5,000 etc? I’m willing to bet you would be more open to the possibility. I certainly would. I have to agree however, that being able to perform magic, does not make him the son of God.
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“It seems to me that more people would agree there is a soul than there is not.” Since when did truth become reduced to a majority opinion?
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hey! like i said before! if you have a question about this email me, i will answer it MRRY79@hotmail.com
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Truth is not a majority opinion, I most certainly agree. But if you survey the history of philosophy, the evidence and prepondrance of opinion seems to fall on one side of the debate. There are good metaphysical and epistemological reasons to believe in the existence of a soul. The truth of the matter seems to fall in that realm. To go against that tide, you need substantive proofs.
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belief in metaphysical is as substantial as the “group” metaphysics rests upon. Frankly, sitting around pondering one’s navel and how really it “isn’t” a navel is a waste of time. philosophers are guys who didn’thave the patience to plow thru data and form theroes, just as scientists dont have the patience to deal with people. the only diff between plato and jonny lunchpail is plato wrote it first
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sorry change that to ground. long day.
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“You have a point; Even if it’s all true what the hell do you care?” haredawg, you understand about 2% of what I wrote if that’s honestly what you thought my entry was arguing.
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“Now, BUM, about the soul. If you deny the soul, you are the one who must prove it…” I disagree entirely, but, I’ll grant you that there’s a soul. Go from there.
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“Your gospels-as-conspiracy theory doesn’t stand up to the critics.” Hell, I’ll grant you that the gospel writers actually believed Jesus was the son of an all-powerful God/God himself and anything else you want them to believe about Jesus. You’re not any further in the argument yet.
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