Goodness of others besides Jesus.

“Slavery was a fact of life in that time, Jesus teaching against it wouldn’t have accomplished anything. It was not the outward appearance of the world that concerned him.”

Are you limiting what an omnipotent God could do? Saying that Jesus couldn’t have accomplished anything seems to be making the power of God very very very limited. The outward appearance of the world? What about the real suffering of the world? Or is suffering a mere mirage?

“I should remind you that historically, there might still be slavery if it weren’t for the view of the equality of all people suggested in Scripture, and the work of many Christian people over the centuries, from the church fathers like Clement and Augustine (both of whom found slavery abhorrent) to folks like Wilberforce in England who made it his life’s mission to see slavery abolished in that country.”

[StealthPudge18]

If Christians were against slavery, it seems that they were good people inspite of God’s various teachings.

Also, you’re wrong if you are thinking that Jesus saying to abolish slavery was unthinkable at the time…

There were plenty of people long before Jesus to condemn slavery and to promote the equality of all persons. As Ingersoll (an 18th century agnostic) writes:

If the Bible is really inspired, Jehovah commanded the Jewish people to buy the children of the stranger that sojourned among them, and ordered that the children thus bought should be an inheritance for the children of the Jews, and that they should be bondmen and bondwomen forever. Yet Epictetas, a man to whom no revelation was made, a man whose soul followed only the light of nature, and who had never heard of the Jewish God, was great enough to say: “Will you not remember that your servants are by nature your brothers, the children of God? In saying that you have bought them, you look down on the earth, and into the pit, on the wretched law of men long since dead, but you see not the laws of the gods.”

We find that Jehovah, speaking to his chosen people, assured them that their bondmen and their bondmaids must be “of the heathen that were round about them.” “Of them,” said Jehovah, “shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.” And yet Cicero, a pagan, Cicero, who had never been enlightened by reading the Old Testament, had the moral grandeur to declare “They who say that we should love our fellow- citizens, but not foreigners, destroy the universal brotherhood of mankind, without which benevolence and justice would perish forever.”

If the Bible is inspired, Jehovah, God of all worlds, actually said: “And if a man smite his servant or his maid with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.” And yet Zeno, founder of the Stoics, centuries before Christ was born, insisted that no man could be the owner of another, and that the title was bad, whether the slave had become so by conquest, or by purchase. Jehovah ordered a Jewish general to make war, and gave, among others, this command: “When the Lord thy God shall drive them before thee, thou shalt smite them and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.” And yet Epictetus, whom we have already quoted, gave this marvelous rule for the guidance of human conduct: “Live with thy inferiors as thou would’st have thy superiors live with thee.”

pagemaster

October 9, 2004

There was an editorial in my hometown paper today about how Jesus supports the death penalty. It was rather…. um, interesting.

BlessedDarkness

youre asking how those who have not heard of God can be moral? God has written his law upon our heart. You seem to hold morals in high value and yet you don’t believe in God. If there is no such thing as God then why does iut matter what we do? If there is no God then we have no reason to live, because nothing we do will ever matter. Why should we live rightous and just lives if there is

truly noone to hold us accoutable for our actions. If there is no such thing as right and wrong then why to we strive to eliminate “wrong” and set a higher standard of morals to live by? — I know you do it too!!!!! If there is no such thing as wrong then why does someone else gettign hurt affect our emotions so strongly? ~Love~ ~Bonnie~

^Erm, when did you say there was no such thing as wrong, BUM?

It doesnt take “God” to hold ones self accountable.Every thing you do matters. Cause and effect. Isnt “Christian goth” a oxymoron? Sure sounds like one,whoever she is…

The only argues for an innate moral nature and an innate moral law. Where would you suggest that comes from? I can find in the pages of the Bible an explanation for the sense of justice that all people feel. The Apostle Paul notes in Romans that when people who don’t know God’s revelation do the things of that revelation, they are a law to themselves.

Also, there is no logical limit implied by my statement on Jesus not being concerned with the world’s outward appearance. To say that Jesus didn’t concern himself with a particular topic in the Biblical narratives extensively is only a note that it wasn’t a focal point of his ministry. He may or may not have significant things to say on it. It’s important to note that he declared the purpose…

…of his ministry was to “set the captives free.” Just a thought. I am more than willing to concede that people besides Christians have argued against slavery on the basis that it was morally evil. But that Christians have also taken part and forwared that movement is significant. It is also important to note that the Christian worldview set the backdrop for the changes in the Western world.

If you read the entire Old Testament, you’ll see those instances you mention here are figurative language or limited application accounts. The Pentateuch and the Mosaic Law give specific rules that require the setting free of slaves every seven years, during the year of Jubilee. No other Ancient Near Eastern culture practiced that. Where is that in the account mentioned above?

Pirate the Kitty

October 10, 2004

Jesus has opinions on a lot of stupid shit, and he DOESN’T have an opinion on something as heinous as slavery? “Um, sorry guys, I haven’t really thought much about that yet. Get back to you in a millenia.”

And didn’t the ‘Christian worldview’ perpetuate slavery? So why should they get kudos for then stopping the monstrous industry they helped create?

Lillake

October 12, 2004

I can’t remember the verse off hand, but in the book Lev. (can’t spell, won’t even try) there is a verse about selling your daughters into slavery. As well as it is ok to buy slaves as long as they are from neighboring countries.

Actually the church did not allow slavery the only way that they helped it in ay way is that the Cardinal did not allow Spain to keep parts of South Amercia and He awarded them to Portugal which went againts the church. Also way back when in OT times the word slave just meant servent, it wasn’t slavery like we would think of.

StealthPudge18

I don’t believe the cultural myth that Christianity and the Christian worldview are responsible for the spread of slavery. A book called Christianity on Trial, by Carroll and Shiflett answers those trumped up charges. Also, I have posted my answer to your Resurrection entries. I would appreciate it if you could give them a look. I haven’t posted my case yet, but I will as soon as I can.

bgbez

October 16, 2004

With regards to your note, Stephen, like most of the early church, used a Greek translation of the Bible called the Septuagint (sep tua jint). Since the apostles were alive, their letters and writings had not yet been collected as the body of the New Testament. Thanks for the good question! — Sam

4 He will settle disputes among the nations and provide arbitration for many peoples. They will turn their swords into plows and their spears into pruning knives. Nations will not take up the sword against [other] nations, and they will never again train for war. 5 House of Jacob, come and let us walk in the Lord’s light. -isaiah 2:4-5

i could look up the secular and / or Christian views on when isaiah was written, but i can say with certainty it was a helluva long time ago, and even then the world of the Lord was for equality and peace, and the time of redemption was viewed as the time when these things would come to pass. the world is fallen, and that is the fault of those that sin: slavery, ethnocentrism, etc, is a result

of the fall, not the intention of God’s creation. jesus was fully man, and it was not his role to speak out against slavery and make problems for himself before his work was complete – he was limited to a man’s existence. but with his love, and his miracles, and his word, and his death, he has liberated more slaves throughout the world than any one else ever has, or ever will.

RYN: I am simply flattered that you visited my diary entry, O best of the atheists!

Champayne Meyers

October 26, 2004

Nice entry and I am working on a similiar project but we seem to have reached the same conclusions.