A Thinking BUM
March 3, 2004

Why praying to Me might be beneficial.

Blue text are notes left to me. Black text is my words. Red text is my “supposed” words when I was on earth as Jesus about 2,000 years ago.

“‘two hands working does more than a thousand clasped in prayer.’

Two thousand hands working together is meaningless if two hands are not clasped together in prayer to God. Jesus said,

“I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing…””

As the second incarnation of Jesus – I can say with confidence that that is a misquote of my words.

but you really should read prayer studies, objective, medical and scientific studies on prayer. Seriously dude. There are results that apparently work better than two hands working.

I know, I know, Where’s your proof? It’s all over the place, but here’s a few to chew on.

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

http://www.heall.com/healingnews/aug/prayer_and_mental_health.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11529395&dopt=Abstract [haredawg]

Haredawg, 2 of those sites were so riddled with fallacies that I could hardly read them, and the 3rd one was a pay to read article.

Regardless, I do not doubt that prayer can do something. But the hard thing to get people to realize is what my statement means.

I said that 2 hands working does more work than 1,000 clasped in prayer.

One guy tending his garden will produce better results than a garden similar in every way that is left to its own devices except for 500 people praying for a good crop. Provided that guy isn’t stomping around or something.

Can a person reduce his or her stress level by praying? Sure, it’s possible. Should we promote “praying”? I don’t think so.

Can punching things reduce stress? Sure, it’s possible. Should we promote “punching things”? I don’t think so.

I respond, “I don’t think so” because both because the categories are WAY too broad.

I think we might look into what kinds of “praying” or “punching things” might be beneficial. If it turns out that meditating or praying to some idealized forgiving father or listening to music or what have you is mentally beneficial then that is beneficial. If it turns out that hitting a punching bad with a paper taped to it that has “haredawg” written on it reduces stress better than hitting a regular punching bag, then that is beneficial.

But going from “some form of praying” is beneficial to the specific “the beliefs of the people who believe in the existence of some being, and pray to that being by some method should not be discouraged in thinking that they have some extra knowledge about reality.”

Reality questions are questions of fact. Believing something about reality that makes us feel better, does not mean that the belief is true. If the belief is useful, then qualify it that way. “I know there aren’t really elves, but when I pray to them, I feel better.”

In addition, regardless of if there is some good effect to religious belief it doesn’t mean that it’s claims are true.

And what did make you think that, “One of the conclusions of some of the more radically studies, however, is that theists are more mentally stable and atheists.” (I’m sure you meant “more stable than atheists”.)?

Perhaps you thought that the sentence, “And although people who saw religion as being present in every aspect of their lives were less likely to be mentally ill than others, only those who also prayed frequently had noticeably higher self-esteem.” meant that atheists had a higher incident of mental illness? If so, why?

If not, what “radical study” says that?

Log in to write a note

Write a book or something. Start a revolution, kill millions. Invent a longer lasting lightbulb, or develop a cure for AIDS/HIV. Better yet concoct a faster acting, “cleaner” nerve gas. Go into professional teaching, crush the paradigm beneath your boot.

A Thinking BUM
March 4, 2004

So you’re saying that you’re with me?

2k + k = 3000
March 4, 2004

That last entry reminds me of one of my own: http://www.opendiary.com/entryview.asp?authorcode=A550143&entry=10470&mode=

Decided I’d best come by and read you. I know haredawg from ONE of my previous OD identities. I don’t have much respect for him as a person, but he’s a talented writer. Will he block me for this note? Do I care? Well, since I haven’t read him in, uh, 2 years, I have to say, “Nope”. Keep on thinking, Bum.

haredawg
March 4, 2004

There is a Harvard study regarding prayer and yeast cultures. I’m having a bit of hard time finding a free link, but the study shows a five hundred percent growth improvement of the prayed over cultures versus the non prayed over or the control group. Granted it seems silly and secular, but it is documented. Two hands can’t really get those kind of results with yeast cultures.

haredawg
March 4, 2004

Dearest nothiding, typically one leaves notes about me in my own dear diary, but perhaps you were just gossiping. I have never banned anyone from my diary ever and if I could offense at the suggestion that I might ban you for agreeing with my buddy atb here I would. It’s a little too silly to take offense at. But thank you for the talented writer comment. Mind telling me who you were?

haredawg
March 4, 2004

Oh, and as to the mentally stable thing, it’s not my conclusion, it was the conclusion of both a Harvard and Duke Study, one of which was run by Dr. Koenig and I’ve forgotten the other, I could look it up I suppose. If I were trying hard to convince against great opposition I guess I’d be moved to look it up. My personal conclusions about crazy comes down to experiencing the individual.

Haredawg: See http://www.opendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=C101953 if you want to learn something.

haredawg
March 4, 2004

Wherever that is I am blocked from it, so obviously the author thinks I am incapable of learning or has nothing to teach me.

Badseeds
March 5, 2004

Oh, hey, thanks nothiding for the link. I did learn something. I learned that even atheists can be arrogant, bigoted and come across as whiney and spoiled. Imagine that, though thanks for the link, I didn’t know there was such a place.

“If it turns out that hitting a punching bad with a paper taped to it that has “haredawg” written on it…” lmao… anyway, I was just wondering how old you were. you really seem to know what you’re talking about. I’m going through religion problems right now, and I’m doing some searching. Your little debate thing here (warning, sentimental words ahead) has actually helped me a lot. Thank you.

I am quit offended by your claims to be the incarntion of my lord and savior Jesus Christ. The very fact that you claim to be the incarnation implies that he is dead, which is not the case. Yes, Jesus Christ was killed 2,00 years ago and put in a tomb. BUT, he rose again three days later and ascended to heaven where he now remains as part of God. Let me warn you, God does not deal kindly…

God does not deal kindly with blasphemers and unbelievers. If you do not repent and call out to God YOU WILL spend eternity in hell, where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teets.” I will pray for you.

haredawg
March 5, 2004

I like the punching bag analogy in that like prayer it is a very real and measurable thing people do to relieve a multitude of problems. I have one question for you though, why should we not promote either? I know you gave an answer about beliefs and a bunch of other crap that involves your personal grinding axes, but without added agendas, whats wrong with punching bags and prayers? …

haredawg
March 5, 2004

Are you afraid that by punching a bag someone might believe they are a hard ass and go punch people? Or think if something happens as a result of a prayer that the prayerer will think they are magical? You realize of course the majority of prayers and punchers aren’t insane, but, again with the studies, just the opposite, the supposition of delusion thought is just that, a supposition.

You came back! Just like I thought you would!

A Thinking BUM
March 5, 2004

“why should we not promote either?” We should not promote “punching” – but when you get specific enough, I think that “punching a punching bag” can be a healthy way of dealing with stress. So when you ask about “prayer” you’ve said something like “punching” – the far too general term. Praying to a personal forgiving God? Maybe healthy. Praying out of fear of God’s wrath? Maybe unhealthy.

haredawg
March 5, 2004

I don’t know, maybe we’re coming from a lot different places. Unhealthy to me means bringing harm to the organism, creating physical, emotional or social difficulties. I think crazies pray but that prayer doesn’t lead to crazy, which is, I assume, the unhealthy you’re talking about, a disassociation, untethered from the weight of reality, is that general enough? I also think that it’s evident …

haredawg
March 5, 2004

that prayer doesn’t lead to crazy. I’m not aware of any study where non crazy people prayed and became crazy. So, help me out here, what’s the unhealthy thing prayer does to a healthy organism? I know one argument you’ll ave is prayer reenforces irrational ideas, but if it’s unhealthy irrational then they weren’t healthy in the first place. Are you calling every theist unhealthy?

haredawg
March 5, 2004

To call every theist unhealthy is indicative of an anti-social thinking disorder “Most everybody else is wrong, I’m the only right person I know”. Mental health definition of healthy, I’m afraid, takes into account socio mean’s and more’s, which I’m even more afraid to state likely makes the average christian ideaology the center of your bell curve in your community. You are closer to abhorrent.

A Thinking BUM
March 5, 2004

“I think crazies pray but that prayer doesn’t lead to crazy, which is, I assume, the unhealthy you’re talking about…” You’re assuming wrong. I’m talking about stress reducers.

haredawg
March 9, 2004

Weird, if a stress reducer reduces stress and stress is unhealthy … I think, objectively, that a number of folks punch bags and pray to reduce stress, and the ones that were healthy still were after praying and punching. I’m even sure there are a number of people punching bags with Haredawg written on them. If the alternative were to punch haredawg, I’d really like to promote bag punching.

A Thinking BUM
March 13, 2004

I know this is tricky, but here it goes. Punching – are there ways of punching that reduces stress? Yes. Are there ways of punching that is harmful to the person and/or others? Yes. Praying – Are there ways of praying that reduce stress? Yes. Are there ways of praying that are harmful? Probably. All I’m saying is, “praying” is too general a term to mean anything when you want to promote “it”.

A Thinking BUM
March 13, 2004

So that you could be saying something that in some ways can be helpful, and some ways can be detrimental – as a universally positive thing.

Pastel Rainbow
March 14, 2004

Being the vine and branches is like being th banyan tree. When you look at the banyan it is one in many. It is all the same forest of tree of many. So are we the banyan of God. Even if we seem to be many because we are seperate we are still one of the creation.

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