Muse – Question and Answer on Collective Living

How can you say that this collective system would be “better”, when historical evidence, for the most part, completely disagrees with you?

Well, Zomby m’man, I never cited history for a good reason, just as you noted. I’m not saying it’s the best system based off of past success. I’m basing my opinion off of the goals, while acknowledging that such a method is, for now, out of reach because of human nature, which tends to reject working collectively for the good of all and tends to lean more toward working for what is best for you, the well being of the whole a pleasant side effect of general management.

When I envision how I think things would work best, I see a world where people do the work they’re most skilled at and the effort of the whole is channeled into collective resources that are distributed for the good of all. Both basic necessities and luxuries. Personally, I think if the competitive allure of capitalism was set aside and humans could let go of their need to be best and better than others, we could live quite comfortably in such a system. It would, for the most part, eliminate such wasteful things as poverty and class warfare.

Unfortunately, humans are driven to be better, to climb above and excel, sometimes to the detriment of all, I think. So, in lieu of what would be optimal, I think about things like, as discussed before, health care in terms of the goal. My goal would be to provide the most affordable and accessible coverage to all. How you get there I really don’t care, so long as those goals are met(without bringing harm, of course – No exploitation or the like to get there).

The problem is how to get there. In our current system, I’d think it would require real comprehensive reforms on every aspect of our society that has effect on health care, as noted in my prior entry.

Back on topic, yes I do think that the system would be better. With the caveat that it would require a new sort of mindset for those living within such a collective society. Though I am idealistic, I also remain cynical and realistic in contrasting the high ideals of what I would like with the grey reality of why most of it cannot be. Yet.

Kansas Sebastian

October 12, 2004

Excellent answer DarkRen. Marx, Wright, Einstein, and others all dreamed of Utopian societies. Unfortunately that would require human beings to act with dignity and honesty – something we as a society (not individuals) seem predisposed against.

The debate over universal healthcare is one that rankles me. Our politicians love to tout that it won’t work, can’t work, in America. Really? So why is it America has the worst mortality rate and the highest medical costs of all industrialized nations? Including countries that have socialized medicine: Canada, England, France, Sweeden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austrailia, etc. One wonders.

Chthon

Universal health care has not worked in any nation. Through taxes, all the above mentioned nations pay more per person for health care of lower quality than we have here in the States. People like to pretend Americai s a por country, but when it boils down to it a sick person is better off here than anywhere else.

Karalys

October 13, 2004

http://www.cohousing.org/ http://www.ic.org/ Intentional Community. Not a new concept, and a concept that WORKS but not in large doses. The trick is expanding it to work in greater and more organized ways, slowly over time, then expanding it to government at the same slow, organized, deliberate pace. Americans will never embrace it, it is too interdependent.

It seems like what you’re saying is that this “ideal system” of yours would not be compatible with the way human beings behave, i.e. looking out for number one before others. So if this system denies us what we need as individuals, how can you possibly call it “ideal”? And if it’s unworkable, how can you possibly call it “ideal”?

You say that we could set aside the “allure of capitalism” and yet live comfortably. Well, it is in human nature to want to be comfortable, and this is what drives us to work on our behalf in the first place! The allure of capitalism is that it gives you the opportunity to carve out a comfortable life. Your odds of enjoying the same level of comfort in a collective community…

… and not as big. Your desire to “give everyone healthcare” without thinking about “how” is a mistake. Free market economics shows that the best way *for* everyone to have good healthcare is to *not* arrange things so that everyone has it. Market forces simply respond more quickly and more efficiently to human needs than centralized government forces.

So I really have no idea what you mean by “better”, since it won’t deliver us what we need and want as well as the current system, and since it requires us to entirely change human nature and totally reform all of society to do it. Even ignoring the fact that forcibly altering human nature is damn near impossible (not to mention highly immoral), why would it benefit us to shrug off our…

…natural instincts and desires, which have motivated us to survive for millions of years, just to fit into your particular vision of utopia?